Topic by r0entgen

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Topic: distortion when playing loudly

Hello all, I am new to Pianoteq and am trying out the demo version. I'm loving the sound and interested in purchasing; however, I'm experiencing a problem with distortion (popping noises) when playing loudly, especially with multiple notes at a time. What might be the cause of this?

I've read the FAQ and have ensured my audio device type is set at ASIO. I have an i7 processor and don't believe this is a CPU issue. I've noticed that if I record what I'm playing, and playback within Pianoteq, the same popping noises appear as when I was playing. However, if I export the recording, close out of Pianoteq, and play that exported recording, things sound great.

I haven't changed any settings at all. The only thing I've done is go through the steps of calibration. Anyone know what might be going on? Thanks in advance!

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

Did you try reducing the Volume slider? Also click on the L button there to disable the limiter. Also, try setting the polyphony to the maximum value (256).

Hard work and guts!

Reply by r0entgen

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

thanks for your reply. so set polyphony to 256 and unclicked the L, and neither of those did the trick. i've reduced the volume slider from 0dB to -6dB and that seems to have taken away the popping noises, but at the same time, i have to crank my master volume on my computer all the way up and the sound is very soft. my speakers definitely can go much, much louder, so what might be the cause of this distortion? is the pianoteq software not able to play loudly without distorting (and even at 0dB, the volume wasn't very loud at all...)?

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

Check the CPU meter in Options->Perf (as you're playing). Is multicore rendering disabled? Enable it. Also disable CPU overload protection (that can also sometimes produce clicks).

Pianoteq is a VERY dynamic instrument, so having the master volume at 0 dB is not always the best way to go. Better reduce it and also check the value of Dynamics slider (generally I find 30-40 dB is enough - which is also true to an actual piano). Of course Pianoteq can produce very loud sounds, that's why it has a limiter in there (the "L" button)! However, the point is to have a diverse dynamic range, instead of just being loud. So the interplay between master Volume, Dynamics, velocity curve, and volume of your speakers is very important.

The way I work with Pianoteq, is I always put Volume to -6, or sometimes even -10, then find the right Dynamics slider value, and then I boost the output in the DAW if I really need it. However even when recording in a DAW, it's recommended not to record at the loudest possible level, but rather so that peaks hit around -18 dBFS.

Last edited by EvilDragon (28-11-2014 10:07)
Hard work and guts!

Reply by GRB

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

Is it possible to look at the wave form with something like Audacity?  I believe the top of the waves are being clipped, and this causes clicks or pops.  I agree with EvilDragon, that in some way your output is too high.  Digital recording is different from Analog.  If you move into the "red" with digital, the result will be clicks and pops.  While Pianoteq is not an audio recorder, it generates wave forms on the fly.  In short your digital waves are too tall and the peaks are being clipped; or said another way, the amplitude exceeds tolerances.

Last edited by GRB (28-11-2014 13:20)
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Reply by r0entgen

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

Hi EvilDragon, multicore rendering was enabled. I disabled CPU overload protection and it's still clicking when played loudly. Dynamics slider was left at 40dB without alteration. It seems like the only way the clicking doesn't happen is when the volume slider is at -6dB, but then when my master volume is maxed out and it's still very soft, that's not very useful.

Regarding the recording, as I said before, the clicking noises aren't there once I close out of Pianoteq and play the exported file with my regular media player. I've also attached the waveform (volume at -2dB just to force it to produce clicks, and dynamics slider at 40dB; there were clicks and pops throughout this short clip), which doesn't seem that the output is too high and doesn't seem to have clipping. Would you guys agree that is the case?


http://s10.postimg.org/8ni9zf9fd/waveform.png

Last edited by r0entgen (28-11-2014 16:06)

Reply by GRB

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

r0entgen wrote:

.

Regarding the recording, as I said before, the clicking noises aren't there once I close out of Pianoteq and play the exported file with my regular media player. I've also attached the waveform (volume at -2dB just to force it to produce clicks, and dynamics slider at 40dB; there were clicks and pops throughout this short clip), which doesn't seem that the output is too high and doesn't seem to have clipping. Would you guys agree that is the case?


http://s10.postimg.org/8ni9zf9fd/waveform.png

Yeah, It doesn't look like the wave forms are over driven enough for clipping, because usually they will be flat at the top.  All I can say is this is one of the many reasons I'm waiting for a highly portable piano with built in speakers that has the Pianoteq voice on board.  I'm just guessing that you have some sort of sound ampilfication issue where you find it necessary to overdrive the Pianoteq software, or perhaps it is in fact some sort of bug within the software.  It's strange to me that it would even be possible to produce wave form clipping within the software.  It seems as though it would have some form of self-limitation.  It's definitely not something you want, and a soft wimpy output is not desirable either.

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Reply by jcfelice88keys

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

EvilDragon wrote:

The way I work with Pianoteq, is I always put Volume to -6, or sometimes even -10, then find the right Dynamics slider value, and then I boost the output in the DAW if I really need it. However even when recording in a DAW, it's recommended not to record at the loudest possible level, but rather so that peaks hit around -18 dBFS.


I completely concur with you, Mr. Dragon: 

My Main Volume Slider's settings are always between -6 to -9dB, with corresponding adjustments to the dynamic range slider, usually around 36dB.  All of my demos for Pianoteq use this combination of settings.

Cheers,

Joe

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

What is your audio interface, r0entgen?

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Reply by r0entgen

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

So I've noticed even when I have the volume set at -6dB, if I turn the master volume up, when I slam on the keys loudly enough, I hear the popping/crackling noise.

EvilDragon, I don't have an audio interface. I have a subwoofer that plugs into a DAC (the DAC is plugged in to the computer via USB), and the two monitors plug into the subwoofer. I have a MIDI to USB cable connecting the computer to my keyboard.

I wondered about whether an audio interface would resolve this problem, and as such, I purchased a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 to see if it'd resolve this problem, but I can't seem to get it to work properly and no sound is coming out of my speakers at the moment...

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

Yeah, having an audio interface should help, hopefully. You have to install ASIO drivers that come with the audio interface (so, select ASIO in Pianoteq's Options->Audio, and then select the Focusrite driver, then adjust the latency to, say, 256 samples). If you don't get any sound out of it, I'd check all connections first.

Hard work and guts!

Reply by r0entgen

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

Thanks for your help. Maybe you'd have an idea about this. This is the DAC I have: http://schiit.com/products/gungnir

Right now, I have DAC connected to computer via USB, and subwoofer connected to DAC via TRS-TRS cables, and monitors connected to subwoofer via TRS-TRS cables.

Now, how does the audio interface fit into this equation? The guy at GUITAR center told me to connect the 2i2 to the DAC via TRS-RCA cable, but I'm getting no sound when I select 2i2 in Pianoteq...

Last edited by r0entgen (28-11-2014 20:14)

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

Can you try connecting the speakers directly to the Focusrite? Audio interface is basically an ADC and DAC in one box.

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Reply by r0entgen

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

I could, but I paid good money for this DAC and love the way it sounds and I'm pretty certain this 2i2 isn't going to sound as good Just trying to make this work with the stuff I have, and it seems like I'm the only person with this problem with the popping. There seems to be no mention of it anywhere else on the Internet...it's weird..

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

Just try it with the Focusrite, really. Since the manufacturer of that expensive DAC obviously didn't bother to write proper low-latency ASIO drivers for it (all I can find on their site is USB drivers, which is not the same thing!), chances are you'll get no pops with the Focusrite. I hope, at least.

Last edited by EvilDragon (28-11-2014 20:31)
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Reply by r0entgen

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

Just connected it and I'm actually getting no sound...weird...

Reply by mfiadeiro

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

Hi r0entgen,

Please check if your power plan is not throttling down your i7. I had a similar issue and resolved it by creating a power plan with the CPU always fixed at 100%. You could try some utils to check for bottlenecks:

http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon
http://www.thesycon.de/eng/latency_check.shtml

Regarding your Focusrite issue; please check if the ASIO drivers are correctly installed, that they are selected on Pianoteq/Options/Devices and that your headphones are connected to the output (or your Amp/speakers are correctly attached to the Focusrite Line Outputs) and check the frontal volume knob (when I got my external sound card I had a couple of seconds of high anxiety...).

Regarding your Gungnir unit: Did you tried to install C-Media software for the usb? In the ASIO drivers should be an entry like: "ASIO: ASIO for C-Media USB Device"
(please see http://yourfinalsystem.com/dac-reviews/ … dac-review ).
Try contacting the Schiit Audio guys, they should help you.

Last edited by mfiadeiro (11-12-2014 10:20)

Reply by Pressluft

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

Hi. I have the exact same problem. Distortion and dull when using a volume >-6dB but then it is to silent.
When I use headphones the sound is amazing but when I try to reproduce this sound in my room I fail.
The sound sometimes is dull and the volume far to low.
When I play classical music with the HS7 monitors the sound is crystal clear and has power.
It looks like it has nothing to do with the sound drivers or the operating system when I assume that r0entgen is using windows.
I also assume the ASIO drivers are necessary for windows? (I'm new to all those things)

Setup:
Max CPU load < 25%
Volume = -6dB
Dynamic range = 36
Velocity curve =[9, 106; 0, 127] (I can't reach the 127 with my piano)
No audio interface (Built in)
Yamaha P-35
Yamaha HS 7 Monitor
Macbook air
Pianoteq 5.1
Logic Pro X

Reply by cpcohen

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

Pressluft wrote:

Hi. I have the exact same problem. Distortion and dull when using a volume >-6dB but then it is to silent.
When I use headphones the sound is amazing but when I try to reproduce this sound in my room I fail.
The sound sometimes is dull and the volume far to low.
When I play classical music with the HS7 monitors the sound is crystal clear and has power.
It looks like it has nothing to do with the sound drivers or the operating system when I assume that r0entgen is using windows.
I also assume the ASIO drivers are necessary for windows? (I'm new to all those things)

Setup:
Max CPU load < 25%
Volume = -6dB
Dynamic range = 36 dB
Velocity curve =[9, 106; 0, 127] (I can't reach the 127 with my piano)
No audio interface (Built in)
Yamaha P-35
Yamaha HS 7 Monitor
Macbook air
Pianoteq 5.1
Logic Pro X

FWIW --

If the sound is dull and lifeless, increase the Dynamic Range.  I think that 40 dB is "stock" for most presets, but 50dB is still playable - and much more interesting.

Yamaha HS7 monitors should produce _loud_ sound in a normal room.  There is probably an "input gain" control on the HS7:

. . . keep the Pianoteq level at -6 db (don't overload the computer soundcard),
. . . and raise the HS7 input gain to make the sound louder.

.          Charles

.     Charles

Reply by Mossy

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

Was doing some fiddling yesterday and noticed loud volume distortion disappears if I switch from Stereo to Mono.

https://soundcloud.com/mossy456/

Reply by Luc Henrion

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Re: distortion when playing loudly

this could be a connection problem... what's your cabling scheme ?

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