Pianoteq Sound Quality - built in soundcard vs audio interface?

As I understand it, anybody who is seriously busy with computer-soundgeneration, uses a dedicated outboard audio device. Or perhaps a plugin board inside a PC.

That is, simply, because the firms making these, have a lot of specialised experience in this field, and can produce far better specifications than onboard audio can give you.

Besides, the input/output connectivity is far greater and better, like symmetric output conncetors, having a much wider dynamic range, etc ec.

Not to mention the ASIO drivers that are being used in these devices, which give you far better latency.
Also most of the time there is better software coming bundled with these devices, like phase scopes, spectrum analyser, and also useful tools like equaliseers, limiters etc etc.

I could go on for some time....pls buy a dedicated audio device, this piano is worth it!!

I guess that could have something to do with it, however the sample rate and buffer size are the same when i choose between built in output and my TC Electronic Impact Twin audio interface in Pianoteq. So that doesn't seem to be the problem I guess.

So far it seems that geert's answer is quite good!

I'd like to share a different experience. I am new to digital pianos, and from what I read in several forums, an external sound card is supposedly always better than the onboard internal one.

So, I bought a Behringer UCA222, it is entry level but it got many enthusiastic reviews.
I tested it extensively, and I can't perceive any quality improvement over my notebook internal Realtek "Intel HD audio" card using good headphones.
Also, the measured latency from keypress to sound out is consistently lower with the internal card rather than the UCA222, even though that is supposedly an "Ultra-Low Latency" card.

I tested the UCA222 with both native ASIO drivers and ASIO4ALL drivers, and the internal card using ASIO4ALL in Windows. Under Linux I tested with Alsa and Jack. The notebook is a Sony VAIO Duo 11, and the piano software I tested is Pianoteq and Kontakt.

So, maybe high-end card might be really better... but if you have "HD audio" onboard it may be better than an external card. Unless I'm doing something really wrong, as I said I'm new to the field and willing to learn.

Ha, I recently bought a Behringer UMX610, which I use for some simple studio work, and it came with this separate audio interface.

It,s indeed no good, when compared with my MOTU microbook 2, EMU 0404 USB, or Focusrite Saffire, which are the ones I use.

This small unit has the benefit of having decent in-outs, and even separate phones output, compared with the laptop situation, BUT: in the mean time most laptops have grown better onboard audio. And this, combined with a ASIOfor ALL driver, gives you indeed sometimes a better audio quality.

So with outboard audio devices we mean NOT these ( there are more on the market) devices.......

I cannot find the Toy piano in v 5.13....help!!

I understand, I went too cheap with the UCA222... so, which cards would be good enough to be a substantial improvement in perceived sound quality and latency?
Since I don't need other connectors (midi, mic, line in), I was thinking about something like Traktor Audio 2 or Fiio E17. Would they be good or are they still too entry-level? How much would a quality card cost?

Thank you

Last time I checked Asio4All with onboard audio was about more than 10 years ago and came to an obvious conclusion that it is a very compromise decision with some flaws here and there. Got the Audiophile 2496 semi-pro soundcard and was absolutely happy about it. The sound quality, delay issues, overall stability - just obviously better. My non-musicians friends also stated with no doubt that the sound quality was much much better even with a consumer speakers - we made some tests on some setups. But just today I tested Asio4All on a Lenovo laptop - onboard audio, inexpensive headphones - and, surprise, worked absolutely great, 64 samples buffer size, no clicks, no noticeable delay, the sound is very nice. So, seems they really improved it all and I could really recommend it.

THe final verdict......with some modern laptops,   and no other plans for setting up your own home sound studio, I wold advise to firt check the onboard sound.

3 things to take care of:

1. Use a low latency ASIO driver.

2. If you are planning to connect active monitor speakers,  check if the latter has - apart from  symmetrical inputs which is the industry standard - also ASYMM input conncetors (RCA). Because there is a significant difference in signal levels ( - 10 dBv versus + 4 dBu).

3. Be aware of the NON-symmetrical connection between two mains supply connected devices, like amps and active monitors, which can give ground loops, over which not only AC spurious, but all sorts of computer-related noises can be generated. Sometimes, connecting a separate thing wire ground connection can improve this.

For connecting outside devices, it is far better to use the SPDIF ( most of the time optical) output signal if provided. this is completely noise-free as it is digital.

From the above you can conclude, that connecting a headphone does not give this noise. BUt it would be nice to compare the spes of the phones output with the requirements of the headphone.

For comfortable headroom in the phones, an output power above 50 milliwatt should be there, which most of the times is limited to some 20 milliwatt or so......

Yes, I studied electronics and acoustics and have been working in this field......

The E10K can 'almost' drive the AKG k702s but only on full volume and high gain and that's listening to normal audio.

The DAC is useless for for Pianoteq, with both ASIO4All and the native ASIO Driver the latency is awful.

BTW The Native E10K ASIO driver is essentially the RealTek ASIO driver that was released around 2007.  It also only worked with a 32bit Windows laptop under Windows 7,  despite there being a 64bit install it didn't appear in Windows 8.1.

I'm really impressed with the AKG K702 headphones, even with the FiiO E10k but I really need something that can drive them for Pianoteq, any ideas?

Excellent choice. You can go way up with the price, but the improvements are less audible.

The E10k delivers 200 mW into 32 Ohms, which can drive any headphone.

I bought the E11k recently, it goes even higher with 270 mW, but that is only 1,2 dB louder, so neglectible.

Happy playing!

Yes, looks very good, with 600 milliwatts. But you should definitely need a AC power supply, as changing batteries every 6 hours is a bit annoying.

Actually I'm surprised the K702s are "hopeless" with the E10K. According to my maths, if Pianoteq is adjusted to output a full scale signal, the peak sound level will be about 113dB SPL (probably even a bit more) which is actually a bit louder (about 4dB) than I can achieve with my setup, and my setup is loud enough with Pianoteq. (I can't make it VERY loud though - it will distort)  There's no way I would describe my setup as "hopeless" though.

I have to wonder whether there's something wrong somewhere.  Anyway, if the latency of the E10K is no good, then I suppose we can forget all about the E10K.......

Greg.

Ok, the K702 delivers 105 dB/V. That is a quite normal sensitivity compared with others.
Not to mention the K550, which delivers 114 dB/V. that,s why I needed that one, as I have lost 20 dB of my hearing.

But back to the K70(1)2.  The E10k kan output 200 milliWatt, which is at the same time the max power that the K702 may have.

This is in 62 Ohm ( the impedance of the K702) some 3,5 Volts, and in 32 Ohms still some 2,5 volts.
That gives a acoustic level of between 112 and 115 dB, which is only 5 dB below the pain level.

From experience, i can say, that the K702/1 range delivers good output connected to all phones outputs of modern external Audio devices. Le talone, when you use a dedicated phone amp.
It would also be totally unimaginable that a wellknown brand like AKG whould develop a headphone that gives too low output level........

Because of their transparency, they are within this price range,  the best for piano.

Greg, you are absolutely right.  I did cut some corners there, and did not spend enough time on te subject.

I assume, the E10 has a farily constant max output voltage, as these opamps have a low internal output impedance and should maintain a rather constant voltage output as long as you stay above the specified minimum load impedance??

greetings, and thanks that you corrected me on this.

THat is really big output!

For good value for money, this one is also interesting:

http://www.jdslabs.com/products/35/obje...-amplifier

Static sounds using headphones:  I'm experiencing low level sporadic (occurs every so often not at regular intervals) static sounds.  My set up is a Scarlet Solo II with an HP 3i laptop (Windows 10), Midi USB to a Roland LX17 piano. The sound quality is better than the Roland inboard sounds IMO.  I've tried another headphone with same results.
Any help would be appreciated.

PS:  Wasn't sure how to post a new subject and judging from the expertise on the topic of this forum I'm hoping you have an answer.