Topic: Do I really need an audio interface?

I'm a new user - equipment: Kawai MP10, Macbook pro computer 8 GB ram, two QSC K10 PA speakers, good headphones, Pianoteq 5.

Question: Pianoteq sounds great through my headphones using the headphone jack on my Macbook pro. My question is regarding connecting to my PA speakers: do I need an external audio interface to get really good sound quality, or will using my macbook pro headphone jack (to the PA's directly) be good? I don't do any mic recording, so that part of an audio interface would be wasted on me.

The internet seems to be filled with conflicting information on this subject. Especially on topics like latency.

Does anyone use their macbook head phone jack directly out to their PA's?

Would I be wasting my money and adding latency for a marginal improvement?

Pianoteq, Ravenscroft 275

Re: Do I really need an audio interface?

There are (in my humble opinion) three main considerations when speaking about audio interfaces. Those are: noise, distortion, latency. Many PC-inbuilt devices (e.g. AC'97 and relatives) are just awful in the first two disciplines. However (although without speaking from personal experience) Mac audio interfaces are supposed to be a whole lot less bad. One probably still benefits from a good audio interface, but maybe not as much. On a PC notebook, it is usually not even a question, though...

Latency is largely not an issue anymore, IMHO, at least when only playback is concerned. That is, roundtrip latencies (recording to playback) of less than 50ms are nowadays achievable even without special drivers like ASIO. The newer Windows architecture(s) as well as the Mac OS audio architecture and ALSA on Linux allow for reasonably low latencies; in fact this now works so well that for Windows an ASIO emulation layer exists that sits on top of WDM kernel streaming (ASIO4All) and makes native ASIO drivers obsolete most of the time. The lowest achievable latencies differ depending on the device and its drivers, but values of 5-10ms (or 10-20ms roundtrip) are possible in most cases, and this is usually squarely in 'fast enough' town.

Last edited by kalessin (28-07-2014 21:42)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Do I really need an audio interface?

I use an old early 2008 MacBook 4,1. I have no problems running Pianoteq with 96000 Hz sample rate and 128 (1,3 ms) audio buffer size but I haven't connected it to a PA nor had the chance to compare it with interfaces.

All I know for sure is that latency is a matter of driver, not hardware. Onboard drivers of Macs are very good here as you may also have experienced.

I'm sure that RME interfaces are better SOUNDwise, at least. They are told to be among the best. The question is if you really need that. If I went on stage regularly I'd definitely use a very good interface.

formerly known as Notyetconvinced

Re: Do I really need an audio interface?

Modellingoptimist wrote:

All I know for sure is that latency is a matter of driver, not hardware. Onboard drivers of Macs are very good here as you may also have experienced.

Not quite true. There is software latency, driver latency and hardware latency. For example, I normally use a buffer size of 128 samples at 48kHz in Pianoteq. This corresponds to a software-induced latency of 2.7ms. The total latency of my setup (Zoom R24) is closer to 10ms, however, leading to a total round-trip of ca. 20ms when used in a DAW setup. The reason for this is that the driver increases the latency somewhat, and also the R24 itself has an internal playback buffer (of probably about 128 samples). This is necessary since e.g. USB is no real-time bus protocol and introduces jitter and latency of its own. For the same reason the really, really high-end stuff used in scientific setups (e.g. for accoustic phase measurements, where absolute timing consistency and lowest latency are vital) is still PCIe, as far as I know.

(Side note: the limited and often fixed internal buffer is also in my opinion the reason most USB audio devices don't really play nicely with USB-hubs. For example, I currently can't plug the R24 in directly, and this leads to crackle-free 96kHz operation being more or less impossible even when using huge buffers on the computer side. The probable reason for this is USB timing jitter reaching the ms range.)

Last edited by kalessin (29-07-2014 09:37)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Do I really need an audio interface?

Thank you for the great replies. As a beginner in this medium it certainly is confusing. I'm fairly confident based on replies that I will not have big problems with latency. Yet my main question still remains --- if I purchase an audio interface will I see a noticeable improvement in sound quality through my QSC K10's versus just using the headphone jack of my MacBook Pro. Right now, my headphones played through the headphone jack sound pretty darn good. It almost seems that if my objective is great output quality (not recording) that 90% of the functionality if an interface will be wasted?  What do others use on their way out to powered PA speakers?

Pianoteq, Ravenscroft 275

Re: Do I really need an audio interface?

Easiest way to get the right answer to your question:

. . . Buy the necessary cables to connect your speakers to the Mac headphone output,
. . . and plug them in.

If the QSC 10's sound as good as the headphones (which make you happy with their sound), you will have good reason to believe that you _don't_ need an outboard audio interface.

If you say "Yuck! They sound awful!", you'll know you _do_ need an audio interface.   Or at least, that it's worth trying one out.

I think that Mac's have a reputation for better "built-in sound" than most PC's.   

.           Charles

Re: Do I really need an audio interface?

I have an XPS 420 that looks like this, a late-2007 model. I am using Audio-Technica ATH-M50 headphones plugged into the front headphone jack. Pianoteq is being played as a VST through Reaper's WASAPI output in 'shared mode' at 44k/128 samples, so latency is not an issue, though I do get occasional crackles (that are rendered moot when exporting as WAV). I use a bit-depth of 24 as the default audio output, and I cannot hear any noise coming from my headphones at any volume when nothing is playing.

Now, that sounds like Dell made some good design decisions concerning the onboard audio, but I just want to know if upgrading to e.g. a Focusrite 6i6 or an RME Babyface would noticeably improve the experience (due to better design), or yield an inaudible, meaningless improvement on the order of investing in thousand-euro cables and loads of audiophile snake oil.

Re: Do I really need an audio interface?

Sound quality is not just noise. A good audio interface can also sound differently due to less distortion. It will probably show less aliasing and intermodulation artifacts as well as lower latency and better stability.

PS: WASAPI shared mode and latency being "not an issue" is something I find quite hard to believe, actually. Whenever I tried shared mode in any software, a noticeably increased latency was the result, regardless of the actual interface used. Also shared mode sets the audio interface frequency to a fixed value, which can lead to increased aliasing distortions (I seem to remember there was a bug in the software mixer at least up to Win7).

Last edited by kalessin (02-11-2014 23:17)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Do I really need an audio interface?

There are other issues when considering whether to use a separate internal or external sound card.  One is that by using a separate card it is more electrically isolated from electrical noise produced by the motherboard and hard disc.   Additionally the performance specification of high-end audio cards usually exceed the specification of on-board hardware.

Now this might not be of importance when listening to MP3 files which have compressed sound but when listening to WAV or flac  files and live sound the separate card wins.

I have separate internal high-end sound cards for my laptop and desktop and apart from superb sound playback it is a pleasure to use them when recording.   The noise floor is so much lower than motherboard sound so turning up recording level is less likely to produce playback hiss on the recording.   Separate cards can have multiple real or virtual outputs to drive surround sound or sound processing units.

Once you have used a separate card sound system there is no reason to go back to using onboard sound.

Ian