Topic: High end headphones

I am considering upgrading my sweaty cheaper headphones to much better ones to get better sound, and more comfort --- both from Pianoteq, and for general audio listening through my Scarlett 2i2 and MacBook pro. Being an audio novice, the various posts on the Internet seem confusing. They say that higher end headphones usually have higher impedance - so they need better amplifiers - for example Sennheiser 650 or Audeze LCD2. My little Scarlett interface has a headphone amp in it, but I fear not strong enough.

One could spend a fortune on items like headphone amps, DAC's, etc. but then it's hard to figure out whether these add a delay (latency?) while playing. Does anyone use high end headphones while playing? What configuration is best for reduced delay and sound quality? I'm considering Sennheiser 650's at around $500.

I think my options are?

MacBook - Scarlett 2i2 - headphones (May not be powerful enough)
MacBook - Scarlett 2i2 - small headphone amp - headphones (does this introduce delay?)
MacBook - new DAC - headphone amp - headphones (highest cost solution)

Pianoteq, Ravenscroft 275

Re: High end headphones

I am using a Scarlett 2i4 and beyerdynamic DT-990 Pro headphones at 250 ohms.  I am using a rather inexpensive headphone amp (ART HeadAMP 4), mainly because I have to accomodate more than one pair of headphones from time to time and I have a Zoom R24 connected to the Scarlett, and the R24 has indeed quite a weak built-in headphone amplifier.

However, the Scarlett is actually (just) powerful enough to drive the DT-990s by itself, and I guess the Sennheisers as well. Don't expect ear-shattering volume, though; but since I am rather noise-conscious, this was never a real issue for me.

The main problem with combining two amps is not latency, by the way: it is noise. Every amplifier adds noise, and with a high-impedance pair of headphones you have to crank up the volume quite a bit. Since I work with a R24 which tends to have slightly noisy monitoring outputs anyway, the headphone amplifier doesn't make it much worse. But if you are very sensitive in this regard, you will probably have to invest in a high-quality amplifier (which doesn't come excactly cheap, unfortunately).

Last edited by kalessin (21-10-2014 14:50)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: High end headphones

I have some Sennheiser 580s which are like an older version of the 650s with similar 300 ohm impedance, which is pretty high. They are hard to drive, not because they need more "power" (their efficiency is actually pretty high), but because they need a high voltage to drive a small current through the high impedance. It's often impossible to work out from tech specs whether a given audio interface will do this. My previous interface (UA-5) was turned up to max all the time. I recently bought a Presonus 44VSL as it has a particularly high headphone output amongst other reasons and I only need the volume on 50%. From what I read about Scarlett 2i2, you will probably end up with that turned up to max as well with the 650s. Lots of people seem to use relatively cheap headphone amps. I just wanted an all-in-one solution.

Re: High end headphones

You may expect to get as many different answers as there are people answering your question.

The best way is to go into a bricks and mortar dealership that has several examples for you to try for yourself.   My only advice is this:  if you find a particular pair of headphones that you like and are able to afford -- then BUY them from that dealership.  Even if you must pay more for the privilege of trying before you buy, it would be criminal for anyone to take up a salesperson's time, and the dealership's cost of keeping inventory on hand -- and then going online to purchase at a cheaper price.  Consider the extra cost as a form of consulting fee that you would gladly pay, to get the sound and fit that you enjoy.

Cheers,

Joe

Re: High end headphones

jcfelice88keys wrote:

You may expect to get as many different answers as there are people answering your question.

The best way is to go into a bricks and mortar dealership that has several examples for you to try for yourself.   My only advice is this:  if you find a particular pair of headphones that you like and are able to afford -- then BUY them from that dealership.  Even if you must pay more for the privilege of trying before you buy, it would be criminal for anyone to take up a salesperson's time, and the dealership's cost of keeping inventory on hand -- and then going online to purchase at a cheaper price.  Consider the extra cost as a form of consulting fee that you would gladly pay, to get the sound and fit that you enjoy.

Cheers,

Joe

+1! I check the internet anyway but only try negotiating if there are unreasonable differences. In most cases we've found a fair solution hitherto.

Last edited by Modellingoptimist (22-10-2014 17:38)
formerly known as Notyetconvinced

Re: High end headphones

I bought my beyerdynamic DT-990 from my local dealer as well. I did research beforehand, of course, but nonetheless: just having the option of checking different options and talking to a real human being are not to be sneezed at. I have come to buy from my local dealer whenever it is reasonable. The costs of running a bricks-and-mortar shop are somewhat higher, and so are the prices, but there are definite advantages to the customer.

Last edited by kalessin (22-10-2014 19:24)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: High end headphones

I'd love to try Beyerdynamic T90's - but there just aren't any to try in my city. Tried everywhere. Even Sennheiser's are hard to find at the better quality levels.  In Ottawa, you are pretty much stuck ordering, trying, and returning if they don't work for you.  No stores seem to stock high end headphones here - unless you call beats high end. So Internet research is critical so as to not waste everyone's time.

Thanks for all the comments! They are very helpful.

Pianoteq, Ravenscroft 275

Re: High end headphones

You don't have to get high impedance headphones for them to be good - Grado have a very good reputation, and theirs seem to be mostly low impedance (32 ohms). The ones I usually see mentioned are the SR80i (now SR80e), but they're "on ear" - personally I prefer "around ear" for comfort.

Greg.

Re: High end headphones

I posted this before.
Useful advice for buying headphones:
Frequency response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyVV-O3969c
Impedance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMqlU2rUCqQ
Sensitivity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp714h0PAAw

Re: High end headphones

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful advice. In the end, I went way over budget (of course) and got Beyerdynamic T90's with an ALO The Island dac/amp. Probably too much for digital piano alone, but I'm currently listening to Philip Glass as I write and Wow!

Pianoteq, Ravenscroft 275

Re: High end headphones

Wow - nice gear! I'd never heard of ALO - looks like they do good stuff indeed.

For Windows users (I  know you're using a Mac) that ALO DAC/amp might not be ideal for live playing of Pianoteq etc, because I don't see any mention of native ASIO drivers.  ASIO4ALL may well produce usable results, but for the very best latency I think Windows users should strive to use audio interfaces that have native ASIO drivers. (I know many of us are using ASIO4ALL quite successfully though)

From what I can gather, latency just isn't an issue on Macs, regardless of whether using internal audio interfaces, or USB/Firewire etc.

Greg.

Re: High end headphones

It may be a silly question, I'm not sure...  ...but here it is:


Is it worthwhile to talk about dummy head model for 5.1 headphones?

Last edited by Beto-Music (25-10-2014 22:27)

Re: High end headphones

skip wrote:

ASIO4ALL may well produce usable results, but for the very best latency I think Windows users should strive to use audio interfaces that have native ASIO drivers. (I know many of us are using ASIO4ALL quite successfully though)

From what I know about the Windows driver model for Vista and newer, there is no such thing as "native ASIO". ASIO is almost certainly an emulation on top of WASAPI nowadays, which potentially has a slightly better latency than ASIO4ALL which emulates on top of WKS, which in turn is probably emulated through WASAPI as well on Vista+ (might depend on the driver).

"New" real-time software for Windows should just use WASAPI and be done with it, IMHO. The WASAPI 'exclusive' device mode offers good latency and stability, and if compatibility with dinosaurs like XP is not a concern there's just no reason to bother with legacy APIs. If everyone were to use the newer APIs, then latency probably wouldn't be an issue on Windows, either.

Last edited by kalessin (26-10-2014 12:00)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: High end headphones

kalessin wrote:

"New" real-time software for Windows should just use WASAPI and be done with it, IMHO.

Agreed - it seems to be taking a long time to catch on though, eh? Last time I checked, neither Pianoteq nor Kontakt support WASAPI.  I know Reaper has WASAPI support, but it still says "experimental".

CORRECTION: I see that Kontakt 5 does support WASAPI!

Greg.

Last edited by skip (26-10-2014 12:20)

Re: High end headphones

skip wrote:

Last time I checked, neither Pianoteq nor Kontakt support WASAPI.

It seems that Pianoteq does support WASAPI, actually, though not in exclusive mode. This was the answer I got from support not too long ago:

The "Windows Audio" output in Pianoteq is WASAPI but in non-exclusive mode, so there is still a noticeable latency.

Where the benefit could lie in offering WASAPI but only in shared device mode, I cannot even guess. But my Cakewalk Sonar does support WASAPI, and quite well at that, so I always have the option of just using Pianoteq as a VST.

Last edited by kalessin (26-10-2014 12:30)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: High end headphones

Ah, thanks for the info.  In fact, it appears to be the same situation in Kontakt - it says "shared mode", and indeed it seems to be locked on a rather high sample buffer size (448 samples)

The future for WASAPI doesn't look good over at Ableton:
https://www.ableton.com/en/articles/uns...n-drivers/

;^)

Greg.