Topic by matthew

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Topic: Safe volume levels with headphones

I recently purchased a pair of AKG K240 MKII headphones, which feature a semi-open design. Previously (for the last ten years), I have used a set of Sony MDR-7506 headphones, which are closed.

As an ex-rocker with tinnitus and slight high-frequency hearing loss, I am terrified by the thought of further damaging my hearing. Consequently, I practice very quietly. The Sony's do a great job of blocking out the squishy key noises of my Kawai ES7, but the AKG's, because of the open design, do not. I am now considering returning the AKG's because they have forced me to turn up the volume on my laptop to compete with key noise.

Am I perhaps being overly cautious? If it gives you any idea, I use a Macbook pro and the volume never goes above notch three on the laptop with headphones (which is around the same loudness of between notches 2-3 out of 9 on the ES7 itself, also with headphones). I even bought a cheap decibel meter and tried to stuff it into my headphones while banging away, which gave me an average reading of 50-55 db. That's safe, but my methods were far from exact and I don't trust the results.

So, how do you determine a safe volume level for extended practice, in order to get the most nuances out of Pianoteq while making sure not to damage your hearing?

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: Safe volume levels with headphones

You're being overly cautious IMHO... That said, may I suggest getting BeyerDynamic DT 880 Pro if you indeed choose to return the AKGs? They are also semi-open, but they do block out the exterior quite well. At least I don't hear the clacking of my Kurzweil PC3K8 keys when I play... although I don't have tinnitus. I am mindful of volume levels though - but generally I do turn the volume up until it's at the level where key noise is effectively not present. I suggest you do the same. And another suggestion - do breaks. A pause of 10-15 mins every hour will pretty much compensate for the higher volume you might have been using in order to compensate for key noise of your MIDI controller.

Hard work and guts!

Reply by kalessin

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Re: Safe volume levels with headphones

I guess it depends. I am quite sensitive to noise myself, and it depends on the general state of your hearing and your tinnitus, I guess. Hearing loss is final: it never comes back. So it's impossible to tell from here, I'm afraid. And of course I am no doctor, either. But I would say: don't exceed a noise level you are comfortable with, rather select a closed or semi-closed pair of headphones.

Last edited by kalessin (04-10-2014 16:32)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Reply by Klemperer

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Re: Safe volume levels with headphones

Evildragon is the man for recommendations (I once had a similar Beyerdynamics pro, wonderful! AKG 271, are not too bad either, yet closed).

As you already had/have tinnitus, (I'm coming from a family of a lot of doctors), I still would say every caution is not only important, but necessary. Sounds like your grandpa a bit, but is true. You got it from making music, not from the strange disease of our times, "being overworked" (where every Gauloise-ad tells you life was so sexy and nobody was in stress.). So there is real damage done.
There are initial successes of medicines to fight tinnitus, they call it, as far as I know, "vagus nerve stimulation-tone therapy, if you'd feel inclined to read about it. Yet caution is good, and using headphones (I have to rely on them mostly) as rarely as possible was even better. One can enjoy pianoteq without playing too loudly, and why not do it like you explained, not louder.

Reply by Beemer

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Re: Safe volume levels with headphones

Matthew,

I use BeyerDynamic  DT700.  To me they are of closed design but there is a small port hole so perhaps that is where the term semi-closed might come in as mentioned by Evildragon with his higher end Beyers.

My PT set up is via a Behringer mixer and if the channel gain is set too high there is a definite and significant increase in keybed action sound.   I can't get my thoughts clear on this as working with the mixer's equalisation controls does not produce the same "thumping" key sounds as when the channel gain is set too high.

In  my case with equalisation controls at null,  turning the channel gain down can completely eliminate the key sounds whilst still retaining more than adequate music volume.

Hope you get this fixed.

Ian

Reply by kalessin

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Re: Safe volume levels with headphones

The DT (headphones) series consist (as far as I know) of three models: the DT-770 is the closed design, the DT-880 is the semi-closed, and the DT-990 is the open design variant. I have a DT-990, and it is indeed a very fine pair of phones. The DT-700 seems to be a headset, probably similar in design, though (and very probably a closed or semi-closed design).

An 'open' pair of headphones keeps you in contact with the background noise. Many people prefer this, since it tends to put the least strain on your concentration and ears. Closed phones almost completely block ambient noise, which means you don't have to fight against loud background noise, but it also can make you feel disconnected, even dizzy when using them for longer times. The semi-closed (or semi-open) variant tries to be the best compromise between isolation and comfort.

In Matthew's case, the idea would be to passively block as much ambient noise as possible so the headphone volume can be as low as possible. So this would indeed suggest a closed pair of phones. I don't know the corresponding AKG model (they do make closed ones, though), but I would probably try the DT-770.

Last edited by kalessin (04-10-2014 18:26)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Reply by Pianoteqenthusiast

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Re: Safe volume levels with headphones

Hi

I have tinnitus too, and I use open back headphones. As long as I hear normal conversation through the headphones, I think the volume level is safe. Closed headphones have an effect on the airpressure on the ear drum, so as I experience, I use open headphones because they make the least pressure difference to the inner ear, and less pain.

Reply by matthew

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Re: Safe volume levels with headphones

Thank you for the suggestions. I will check out the BeyerDynamic models mentioned. In the meantime I have gone back to the Sony's, since I get a more realistic experience without hearing keyboard noises. However, now Pianoteqenthusiast's mention of increased pressure on the eardrum has me a little worried. Could this potentially damage hearing?

Breaks are indeed essential. I never go for more than 30 minutes without resting for 5-10 minutes. Not only does this help protect hearing, but it also improves concentration and the quality of practice overall.

Reply by kalessin

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Re: Safe volume levels with headphones

matthew wrote:

However, now Pianoteqenthusiast's mention of increased pressure on the eardrum has me a little worried. Could this potentially damage hearing?

In my opinion, no. Pressure on the eardrums has a simple name: noise. I.e., a closed design will probably be a bit louder at the same volume setting, which is of course easily fixed (and the different models and makes all differ in loudness anyway). The general acoustics also change when moving to a closed design, which can lead to a different frequency response: i.e., a closed pair of headphones sounds differently to an open one, but I would expect the manufacturer tries to compensate for that as well.

Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Reply by fntms

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Re: Safe volume levels with headphones

Well I just bought a DT-880 Pro (because of this thread) and I must say it's awesome after years of using an AudioTechnica ATH-A900 (closed but offering poor isolation), which had me constantly needing to tweak the Eq to get something half decent and ultimately unsatisfactory with most settings.
Now with the Beyerdynamic I really can feel the power of Pianoteq! Rich, resonant and ravishing sound...
So thanks for the recommendation EvilDragon...

Reply by LTECpiano

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Re: Safe volume levels with headphones

fntms . .   good for you.  You should see my old DT880 headphones.  I have had them since 1986.  Made a custom head band . . the old one wore out.  Have re-soldered the cables in side many times.  All of the covering has peeled off of the cushions leaving this cotton T-shirt like material which is so comfy.  BUT . . . they sound just like they did when new.  You made the right choice.

Lanny

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