Topic: Keyboard and pedals?

I've been evaluating PianoTeq recently, as an improvement (a significant improvement!) over the piano sounds in my old Yahama SW1000XG card. I'm very impressed with how well it works, but I suspect that my elderly weighted keyboard (a Fatar SL-990) may be limiting my playing. I would also like a soft pedal in addition to the sustain pedal that I have.

I'm interested to hear recommendations of weighted keyboards (ideally supporting more than just a sustain pedal) that allow Pianoteq instruments to be played effectively.

I'd also be interested to know whether there's a way to add other pedal types to my existing keyboard (which only has an input for a sustain pedal). I'm guessing that I'd need a pedal that could send its own MIDI soft pedal messages?

David

Re: Keyboard and pedals?

Hi,

there are several viable piano controllers available nowadays. Which is best for you depends on your needs, your personal preferences and also largely on your budget. So a universal answer is difficult.

For example, a Casio Privia PX-150 with CS-67 stand and SP-33 pedal unit will give you three pedals and already quite a good piano action, although maybe slightly on the 'light' side. The Privias actually are rather nice controllers, although their internal sound should be considered an 'emergency fallback' (i.e., just ignore it's there at all). Though to be fair, the new PX-x50 series has improved quite a bit in that regard.

A significantly more expensive possibility is the Kawai VPC-1. This is a specialised MIDI controller just for piano playing, featuring almost no buttons at all but a very nice piano action and a triple pedal; however apart from its price it is also quite heavy (almost 30kg) due to its piano action and thus requires a sturdy stage piano stand. Including e.g. a K&M 18810 stand it is almost as expensive as a middle-class digital piano, although speaking from my personal perspective you will have a hard time finding a better piano action at its price point.

Even more expensive options include full digital pianos, e.g. the higher-end Yamaha Clavinovas and Roland  pianos as well as  Kawai's CA and CS series; but these are almost prohibitively expensive to be used just as a controller. You might also want to have a look at this thread.

Concerning pedals: a separate MIDI grand piano pedal unit did exist until a while ago, it was as far as I know the only product of its kind and far from perfect, and has been discontinued. You might have success getting a single continuous pedal (e.g. the Roland DP-10) to work using the 'MIDI Expression' unit. You could then e.g. map the Fatar's pedal to soft (since half-pedalling is not really necessary for the soft pedal, I think) and use a Roland DP-10 with the MIDI expression thingy as your sustain pedal. This is, of course, a rather tinkery option.

Last edited by kalessin (14-07-2014 11:21)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Keyboard and pedals?

Thank you, that's extremely helpful. The Kawai VPC-1 looks incredible, but would be a little hard to justify for my current purposes. Maybe if I keep practising I can justify it in the future... :-)

I'll have a look at the Privia, but I suspect the advantage over my existing keyboard may not justify the price. Thanks for the suggestions on pedals too - they may be a better place to invest currently.

David

Re: Keyboard and pedals?

The PX-150 has a much better feel than the old Fatar. I used to own one, and I had a lot of trouble getting pianissimo. I think the Casio will provide a far superior feel. Also it allows 1/2 pedaling for the damper.

You should be able to sell your Fatar and buy a gently used Casio with stand and pedals without shelling out more than $100-$150.

Another option would be to wait to see if Casio comes out with a new and improved line this winter. The PX-150 is two years old.

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.

Re: Keyboard and pedals?

beakybird, that's interesting - thanks: it's the pianissimo that I struggle with (or if I turn the volume down to compensate then I can't play fortissimo!) so perhaps I should upgrade to a PX-150.

Is the PX-150 generally considered the best weighted keyboard for piano playing in its price range, or are there other options that I should be considering too?

Last edited by davidm (16-07-2014 09:32)

Re: Keyboard and pedals?

The SL-990 uses the TP/40 keyboard, which is actually Fatar's "big" piano action. It is still used even in newer models, albeit sometimes e.g. in an updated version with wooden keys. Apart from that, many controllers and pianos by different manufacturers use Fatar actions (e.g. Doepfer), mostly the TP/40 or the TP/100 (particularly when weight and price is a concern). So, if you are looking for a noticeably different piano action, your options are limited (but not zero).

The mentioned current Privia PX series (mainly PX-150, PX-350, PX-5) all use the same tri-sensor keyboard. It's quite precise, especially for its weight (about 12kg if I recall correctly), and its touch is, while on the light side, still not unrealistic and allows for controlled play. I own a PX-3 myself, which uses a slightly older version of the same keyboard. Since it has a lighter touch, I would recommend compensating a bit for it in Pianoteq (touch curve).

Then there is the Roland A-88. It uses Roland's own 'Ivory Feel G' keyboard, is still quite a light instrument (about 16kg?), and from what I understand the Ivory Feel G is perfectly usable (though maybe again a bit on the light side). It is a bit more expensive than the PX-150, and from what I've heard the keyboard is not that much superior to Casio's piano action, but I would strongly recommend visiting a dealer and making that determination for yourself. A lot is personal taste anyway.

The Fatar/Studiologic Numa Nero uses a 'TP/40WOOD' keyboard, which is almost the same as in the SL-990 but with wooden keys. This means it is heavier (the instrument weighs >20kg) and also probably has a heavier touch, which in my opinion actually helps pianissimo play. So it might also be an option. However, it is already quite expensive.

Last but not least: you might consider changing the touch curve in Pianoteq and see if that helps you with the SL-990.

Last edited by kalessin (16-07-2014 11:04)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Keyboard and pedals?

Thanks, again Robert! The details of keyboards that you've provided are really helpful. It's good to know that my 15 year old SL-990 is not that different from its modern equivalent.

I'm going to spend some time playing with Pianoteq and its curves before considering investing in another keyboard. I might look at some alternative pedals in the meantime: I would like a soft pedal and a half-pedalling sustain pedal.

Incidentally, you mentioned in your earlier post mapping the Fatar's pedal to soft. Is that something that I could do within Pianoteq?

Re: Keyboard and pedals?

davidm wrote:

Incidentally, you mentioned in your earlier post mapping the Fatar's pedal to soft. Is that something that I could do within Pianoteq?

I've just found the setting! :-)

[Edit]... and tested it and it works.

Last edited by davidm (16-07-2014 20:21)

Re: Keyboard and pedals?

I ordered a Roland DP-10 to use as a sustain pedal with a MIDIExpression from http://www.midiexpression.com/. Unfortunately the MIDIExpression is going to take a week or two to arrive, so no half-pedalled sustain for me just yet...

Re: Keyboard and pedals?

davidm wrote:

I ordered a Roland DP-10 to use as a sustain pedal with a MIDIExpression from http://www.midiexpression.com/. Unfortunately the MIDIExpression is going to take a week or two to arrive, so no half-pedalled sustain for me just yet...

Let us know how that works. Enjoy your Fatar.

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.

Re: Keyboard and pedals?

beakybird wrote:

Let us know how that works. Enjoy your Fatar.

It works very well. I now have a soft pedal (plugged into my keyboard's sustain pedal input and remapped in Pianoteq to a soft pedal) and a sustain pedal supporting half-pedalling using MIDIExpression.

MIDIExpression has been well thought out. When the software is used in stand-alone mode to configure the pedal, its settings are written to the MIDIExpression so that they work without any need to run the software every time. To play the piano, I just launch Pianoteq and turn on my amplifier and keyboard and everything works immediately.

Incidentally, I don't have a dedicated music PC any more, so I use the PC that runs Pianoteq for work too. It has an SPDIF optical output which I didn't previously use, so I've configured ASIO4all to use this for Pianoteq playback. This gives me a dedicated audio output for Pianoteq, which is very convenient. £13 to Amazon bought me a converter to convert the optical output back for my amplifier. (www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009ZR7IB8/)

It may not be quite as simple to set up as opening the lid on a real piano, but it doesn't require tuning and it sounds great (within the limits of my playing, at least)! :-)

Re: Keyboard and pedals?

The cheap way to go is a Casio Privia 150, quite a nice feel for a digital piano. The best way is a Yamaha Disklavier - a real upright or grand action that can play Pianoteq or sampled pianos silently, can be played acoustically, and can record acoustic performances and play them back live on the piano (keys and pedals moving), as well as others' performances. A used Disklavier upright might be somewhat affordable. I love mine.