Topic: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

Watch this 12-minute video from performer Matthew Bengtson of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA, demostrating the real acoustic fortepiano.

He explains what a fortepiano (or pianoforte) is, demonstrates how it is played, and discusses what it is good for. It is in English.

http://youtu.be/zf0XXsx3A_E

I found this quite useful to give me an appreciation of the new early piano models in the Kremsegg 1 and 2 instruments for Pianoteq 5.

Last edited by Wheat Williams (03-07-2014 15:18)
Dayton, Ohio, United States of America
macOS 10.14.6 Mojave • Apple MacBook Pro (2017), no Touch Bar • 2.3 GHz Intel Core i5, 2 core • 8GB RAM

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

Thanks for the link. I love those old instruments. Apart from the Blüthner Model One, KIViR and now Kremsegg are the the most important selling points Pianoteq has going for it, IMHO (apart from being an awesome instrument in general).

Edit: I found this intro to the different historic instrument types also very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uCCw_hmILA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9IaE2i-DmA

Last edited by kalessin (03-07-2014 16:01)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

Great vídeos.  Well done.


I would like to get informations about the first grand piano, the piano that made the transition from fortepianos to grand pianos.

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

Well, if you are thinking of "the" first modern piano, I think you will be disappointed. As far as I know there were several innovations made over the years, which lead to our modern pianos in rather small steps.

The first fortepiano was built by Bartolomeo Cristofori. This was already a full 'piano', as early as ca. 1700. The first actual 'grand' was built AFAIK by Broadwood and Sons (late 1700s). In 1821, Sébastien Érard invented the double escapement, which is essentially the modern grand piano key action. Leather hammer coverings were replaced by felt. The 'Steinway pedal' (i.e., sostenuto) became popular in the late 1800s, though it is even older and was not actually invented by Steinway, if I am not mistaken. The American firm Chickering & Mackays introduced the full-iron frame, which in turn allowed for more strings and more tension. The choirs got three instead of two strings, leading to a fuller sound. There are probably dozens of things I can't think of right now.

The modern form of the grand was more or less 'fixed' in the early 1900s, I think, and can probably be attributed to Steinway, Blüthner, Bechstein and Broadwood as the most important manufacturers of that period.

Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

Thanks.
I was aware of most of theses gradual inovation, but not so detailed.

The pont is that, for example, KIViR and Kremsegg have pianofortes and early/vintage grandpiano with a huge diference.
All vintage grand pianos I saw have iron cast, for example, and the form similar to we are used to see today, despite some models have not the Steinway created single curved wood piece in the side but two pieces or more.

I would like to see a more intermediary model, just for curiosity. Like the earliest kind of model that can be considered a grand piano. What is the minimun amount of inovation it require to be called a grand?

kalessin wrote:

Well, if you are thinking of "the" first modern piano, I think you will be disappointed. As far as I know there were several innovations made over the years, which lead to our modern pianos in rather small steps.

The first fortepiano was built by Bartolomeo Cristofori. This was already a full 'piano', as early as ca. 1700. The first actual 'grand' was built AFAIK by Broadwood and Sons (late 1700s). In 1821, Sébastien Érard invented the double escapement, which is essentially the modern grand piano key action. Leather hammer coverings were replaced by felt. The 'Steinway pedal' (i.e., sostenuto) became popular in the late 1800s, though it is even older and was not actually invented by Steinway, if I am not mistaken. The American firm Chickering & Mackays introduced the full-iron frame, which in turn allowed for more strings and more tension. The choirs got three instead of two strings, leading to a fuller sound. There are probably dozens of things I can't think of right now.

The modern form of the grand was more or less 'fixed' in the early 1900s, I think, and can probably be attributed to Steinway, Blüthner, Bechstein and Broadwood as the most important manufacturers of that period.

Last edited by Beto-Music (04-07-2014 13:54)

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

Speaking about the Kremsegg collection, we just added a beautiful demo played by Joris Holtackers on the Frenzel grand piano, listen to F. Schubert - Sonata No. 20 Andantino on page https://www.pianoteq.com/kremsegg2. He mixed the piano with some church ambience which to me provides a very authentic sound.

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

Beto-Music wrote:

All vintage grand pianos I saw have iron cast, for example, and the form similar to we are used to see today, despite some models have not the Steinway created single curved wood piece in the side but two pieces or more.

I would like to see a more intermediary model, just for curiosity. Like the earliest kind of model that can be considered a grand piano. What is the minimun amount of inovation it require to be called a grand?

I think there really is no consistent definition of what distinguishes a fortepiano from a modern piano. The term 'fortepiano' is very broadly used just in the sense of 'vintage (grand) piano', as far as I know. A narrower definition would be everything that uses a wooden frame instead of a metal one; at least this is what I think of when I think of a fortepiano.

Personally, the distinguishing features that make a grand 'modern' in my book are: full cast-iron frame, choirs with at least 3 strings, felt rather than leather hammers, at least 7 octaves and a double-escapement action. If I am not mistaken, the development was largely finished at the end of the 19th century, however AFAIK many grands built between 1850 and 1900 were still missing one or more of those features, depending on the manufacturer.

For example, double-escapement and felt hammers were quite common from 1850 onwards, I think, but the full cast-iron frame construction was not. Many European grands of that time used composite metal frames, if I am not mistaken: stronger than the old wooden frames, but not as strong as a modern cast-iron frame. Because of this, those models probably had fewer and thinner strings and had a sound somewhere between a fortepiano and a modern grand.

So between 1850 and 1900 things are a bit muddled, and pianos from that time probably all are 'more or less' modern, depending on the make and model. Everything built 1900 or later could/should probably be considered 'modern', however.

PS: all this is talking about grand pianos. I have never really researched pianinos (uprights); they are younger than the grand (early 1800s?) and have probably undergone a similar/parallel development, but of course not identical.

Last edited by kalessin (05-07-2014 20:46)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

Some other videos that are interesting on You Tube are under the name "Trevor Stephenson".  There is a one hour video called "from quill to hammer" that goes into great detail about Harpsichord and early Pianoforte.  Also one on tuning a piano in well temper for 18 century music.

Bill

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

That Schubert Sonata played on the Freznel grand is a wonderful application of this technology.  I look forward to showing that to some of my musician associates.

Lanny

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

Speaking about the Kremsegg collection, we just added a beautiful demo played by Joris Holtackers on the Frenzel grand piano, listen to F. Schubert - Sonata No. 20 Andantino on page https://www.pianoteq.com/kremsegg2. He mixed the piano with some church ambience which to me provides a very authentic sound.

That is pretty gorgeous! Can you explain the technique he used to add that "church ambience"???

Rachel Jimenez
Classical pianist and teacher
http://fundamentalkeys.com

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

Impressive knowledge about vintage pianos !


My humble opinion, to try to define Grands, it's about the sound. It it sound close to a Grand (and for get it naturally require iron frame, 3 strings/note and fine body) it is not a fortepiano.   
:-)


I wonder if leather hammer effect can be adjusted for the modern pianos of pianoteq. Is just a matter of hardness?


kalessin wrote:

Personally, the distinguishing features that make a grand 'modern' in my book are: full cast-iron frame, choirs with at least 3 strings, felt rather than leather hammers, at least 7 octaves and a double-escapement action. If I am not mistaken, the development was largely finished at the end of the 19th century, however AFAIK many grands built between 1850 and 1900 were still missing one or more of those features, depending on the manufacturer.

For example, double-escapement and felt hammers were quite common from 1850 onwards, I think, but the full cast-iron frame construction was not. Many European grands of that time used composite metal frames, if I am not mistaken: stronger than the old wooden frames, but not as strong as a modern cast-iron frame. Because of this, those models probably had fewer and thinner strings and had a sound somewhere between a fortepiano and a modern grand.

So between 1850 and 1900 things are a bit muddled, and pianos from that time probably all are 'more or less' modern, depending on the make and model. Everything built 1900 or later could/should probably be considered 'modern', however.

PS: all this is talking about grand pianos. I have never really researched pianinos (uprights); they are younger than the grand (early 1800s?) and have probably undergone a similar/parallel development, but of course not identical.

Last edited by Beto-Music (07-07-2014 15:47)

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pdBNkgdUJc

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

Thank you Beto-Music for embedding the video.  I have no idea how to do that.  If you do a search of the name "Trevor Stephenson" on youtube you will find his channel and there are other interesting videos.

Bill

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

rjpianist wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:

Speaking about the Kremsegg collection, we just added a beautiful demo played by Joris Holtackers on the Frenzel grand piano, listen to F. Schubert - Sonata No. 20 Andantino on page https://www.pianoteq.com/kremsegg2. He mixed the piano with some church ambience which to me provides a very authentic sound.

That is pretty gorgeous! Can you explain the technique he used to add that "church ambience"???

I don't know exactly, he wrote me that he "mixed with live church ambience noise I once sampled, for increased realism". I told him about the discussion here and will try to get more details.

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

I'd really like an impulse file of that church ambience... !!

http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

delt wrote:

I'd really like an impulse file of that church ambience... !!

I first made the same error... he did not use it as impulse but in a mix (at least that's what I understood). That means several minutes of church ambience. Not that it is impossible to use a truncated/faded out version as reverb impulse, but with no guaranty of similar result.

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

Great post - Beto - to listen and watch the entire video of Trevor Stephenson and at the same time bring up some of the vintage keyboards that are in Pianoteq - make slight tonal adjustments while listening.  But actually right out of the "chute", the presets of the Grimaldi harpsichord and  the Walter pianoforte are very close to the performance video instruments. 

Lanny

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

rjpianist wrote:

That is pretty gorgeous! Can you explain the technique he used to add that "church ambience"???

delt wrote:

I'd really like an impulse file of that church ambience... !!

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

He mixed the piano with some church ambience which to me provides a very authentic sound.... will try to get more details.

Hi Rachel and Delt,

I'm glad you like the recording, thanks!

Before the first note and after the last notes you can hear an acoustic "space" noise. That's the acoustic noise in the empty Nicolaï church in Utrecht that I once sampled just before a recording gig. So, it's no impulse sample.

Now about the acoustic reverberance.

First I bypassed all internal reverb & delay processing of Pianoteq.

Then I accomplished the acoustic church sound by making a subtle combination of different plugins:
• Native Instrument's Reaktor, loaded with the "Kraftverb" ensemble (for putting the
• Reaktor again, now loaded with the "Native Yardstick" ensemble
• IK Multimedia's Classik Studio Reverb
• Reaktor one last time, now loaded with the "Space Master" ensemble

When EQ'ing PT5's instruments, I mostly use IK Multimedia's T-RackS Master EQ 432 and/or Tokyo Dawn Labs SlickEQ.

Soon I'll try to have a closer look at the deeper possibilities of PT5's internal acoustic options.

Greetings!
Joris

______________________
J o r i s    H o l t a c k e r s
composer-pianist | multi-instrumentalist | recording-engineer | mastering-engineer | producer
http://www.sonopoly.net • info@sonopoly.net

Last edited by Joris Holtackers (07-07-2014 23:34)

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

Thanks, Joris! I checked out your website, and will be in touch with you about possible collaboration!

Rachel Jimenez
Classical pianist and teacher
http://fundamentalkeys.com

Re: "Introduction to Fortepiano" a la Kremsegg 1 and 2

rjpianist wrote:

Thanks, Joris! I checked out your website, and will be in touch with you about possible collaboration!

Nice, Rachel! Looking forward to your mail.