Topic by burnhard90

  • Avatar
  • burnhard90
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 29-06-2014
  • Posts: 5

Topic: Audio-Interface or Headphone Amp?

Hey folks,

sorry for my english, I am from Germany.

I am very new in using Pianoteq with my Roland F120, my headphones are Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro 250 Ohm.

I plugged the Roland via a cheap USB-Midi-Interface into my Macbook. When I play at low volumes, I have no problems with the sound, it is very clear and defined. But when I increase the volume of the Macbook to 100% and also the volume of Pianoteq then it sounds more and more undefined and stressed. I even have to activate the Limiter.

This is not an ear damaging volume but for sure the Macbook has its limits.

I am not sure if something like a Tascam US122 MK2 or a headphone for about 50-70€ would be the better choice. At the moment I just need a better sound at higher volumes, do you think the Tascam would fulfill my wish?

Unfortunately my english is limited but before I ask in a german musician-forum I thought it would be more clever to ask here.

Greetings from Germany
burnhard90

Reply by kalessin

  • Avatar
  • kalessin
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 06-12-2013
  • Posts: 306

Re: Audio-Interface or Headphone Amp?

Hi burnhard90,

I have a pair of beyerdynamic DT-990 pro myself, i.e. the 'open' siblings of the DT-770. Do you perhaps have the 250 Ohm variant of the 770 (the 770 come in 32, 80 and 250)? 250 Ohms are in general a bit 'much' for most audio interfaces, so I have my doubts that the Taskam will remedy things.

My recommendation would be: headphone amp first, and a good audio interface on the long run. This helps you right now and you can stretch the costs a bit. I am currently using an ART HeadAMP 4 here myself, which is alright in terms of amplification and distortion (especially for its price). Don't expect it to be able to bring the DT-770 to their actual limits, but it should be loud enough.

A good external audio interface can also be useful, although the audio hardware of Macs in general tends to be above average. Have a look at the Steinberg UR22, it's marginally more expensive than the Taskam, but I think more than worth the difference.

(PS: don't worry about your English, it's absolutely fine IMHO. Quite many of the Pianoteq forum's users aren't native speakers, I would guess.)

Last edited by kalessin (29-06-2014 15:38)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Reply by Luc Henrion

  • Avatar
  • Luc Henrion
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 02-05-2007
  • Posts: 932

Re: Audio-Interface or Headphone Amp?

My own recommendation would be the opposite: get the US-122 first... Because you would get a decent headphone amp AND a decent soundcard, a better one than the internal soundcard of any Mac (or PC for that matter), which should give you less latency. The Steinberg might be a better choice though, I didn't test this one.

Luc Henrion's Website

Reply by beakybird

  • Avatar
  • beakybird
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 29-03-2014
  • Posts: 209

Re: Audio-Interface or Headphone Amp?

I just bought the Scarlett 2i2 which has almost identical specs as the Steinberg except without MIDI interface. It sells for a little less.

It sounds really good with Pianoteq. I'm listening through Sennheiser HD650's, a 300 Ohm headphone.
I read an issue of headphones only getting mono output from a few owners of the Tascam that made me steer away. They were probably using the product wrong, but I didn't want to take any chances.

I liked that Focusrite had very thorough specs on the 2i2.

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.

Reply by kalessin

  • Avatar
  • kalessin
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 06-12-2013
  • Posts: 306

Re: Audio-Interface or Headphone Amp?

The 2i2 is actually a little bit more expensive in Germany than the UR22 (132 vs 111 Euros). However, Focusrite and Steinberg are both brands I would trust almost blindly. After all, Focusrite even specialises in audio interfaces AFAIK.

Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Reply by Luc Henrion

  • Avatar
  • Luc Henrion
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 02-05-2007
  • Posts: 932

Re: Audio-Interface or Headphone Amp?

I have various interfaces for different purposes, both a Tascam US-144 and an US-2000. They are 100% reliable. I also have a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 and a MOTU 896 MKIII hybrid and, while both are of a better audio quality than the Tascam (the preamps in particular), I've had reliability problems with both: the display of the MOTU went down, and the Scarlett would "disconnect" itself randomly until a new (beta!) driver fixed this issue. So, OK, both problems are solved now but that's just to tell you that Tascam is certainly a good choice too. NEVER an issue with both interfaces I own since a long time now.

Last edited by Luc Henrion (30-06-2014 08:46)

Luc Henrion's Website

Reply by kalessin

  • Avatar
  • kalessin
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 06-12-2013
  • Posts: 306

Re: Audio-Interface or Headphone Amp?

You are probably right, the Tascam stuff isn't really that bad. The only actual 'argument' I can remember against the Tascam is IIRC a slightly higher latency. I seem to remember vaguely that some testers reported they could not get the latency below 10ms. This is a bit higher than the AFAIK usually achievable ca. 5ms of other interfaces.

However, truth be told, considering a MIDI tick is usually already about 1-2ms long (as true 'simultaneous' notes don't exist in MIDI), MIDI jitter is also about 1-2ms (more likely 2+ms on USB), and human perception usually starts at 10ms or higher(*), an additional 5ms of latency are less critical than many people appear to think.

(*) if I recall correctly the smallest time differential people notice in terms of an absolute delay is about 5-10ms. I.e. two single events more than 10ms apart will probably not appear simultaneous for a significant number of people, less than 5 will appear simultaneous for most(**). In terms of jitter the numbers are actually a bit lower, I think. But a sound interface usually does not introduce jitter, and even slightly more than 2ms für MIDI over USB should still be pretty much impossible to notice. Also, whenever an actual human plays an actual instrument, timing accuracy should be expected to be significantly worse anyway...

(**) this is speaking for two audible events. Asynchronicity between different types of stimuli, e.g. optical and acoustic, only gets noticeable at much higher values AFAIK. In other words, I wouldn't be suprised that when playing 'live' you will probably not notice anything wrong for latencies up to at least 50ms, possibly even 100ms. Our eyes are effectively much slower than our ears.

Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Reply by Luc Henrion

  • Avatar
  • Luc Henrion
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 02-05-2007
  • Posts: 932

Re: Audio-Interface or Headphone Amp?

Latency is related to the power of your CPU mostly and also to the quality of the drivers, and the Tascam aren't bad at all. I can't "feel" any difference when playing Pianoteq with any of those interfaces.

Luc Henrion's Website

Reply by kalessin

  • Avatar
  • kalessin
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 06-12-2013
  • Posts: 306

Re: Audio-Interface or Headphone Amp?

Luc Henrion wrote:

I can't "feel" any difference when playing Pianoteq with any of those interfaces.

I'm not surprised. See the (**) part above. Also each metre of distance means 3ms more, latency is everywhere. I'm always surprised when people recommend audio interfaces because e.g. built-in audio's "latency is too high". No it's not...

Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Reply by burnhard90

  • Avatar
  • burnhard90
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 29-06-2014
  • Posts: 5

Re: Audio-Interface or Headphone Amp?

Thank you all for your postings

I forgot to say that I have a little "home studio" and already a Focusrite Scarlett 6i6. But I had no more room for the piano, so I had to put it in the living room

Anyway I tested it yesterday and it was only a little bit louder than the build-in soundcard of my macbook. So I am sure that the Tascam will not be better.

I found a cheap headphone amp with a build in sound card which is USB-powered, the Fiio E10. I think I will test it because the reviews say that it will make the signal much louder and a little bit "smoother".

If it is not enough for me I can send it back to amazon

Reply by kalessin

  • Avatar
  • kalessin
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 06-12-2013
  • Posts: 306

Re: Audio-Interface or Headphone Amp?

Well, could work. I'll admit I disliked 'FiiO' the second I saw that they are selling 'high-res' player snake-oil. At least on a Mac you won't have to worry about ASIO support (of which there won't be any).

Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Reply by Luc Henrion

  • Avatar
  • Luc Henrion
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 02-05-2007
  • Posts: 932

Re: Audio-Interface or Headphone Amp?

About latency: things are (slightly) different with the internal sound card on a Mac (better, I admit) and on a PC. But an audio interface has an added value for both: I just let my Tascam for a week to a friend of mine for a test on his (admittedly old) Macbook, and he bought one immediately. And, be it a Mac or a PC, the CPU power really DOES make a big difference. There is a HUGE difference in latency with the same interfaces on my 6 years old Core 2 duo laptop and my new i5 laptop. On the new one, it's negligible, on the old one, it's not.

Last edited by Luc Henrion (30-06-2014 14:21)

Luc Henrion's Website