Topic: Audio Card Recommendation Please

I'm just loving P5.

Here's my equipment:

Casio PX-350 keyboard
HP 2800ghz dual core desktop
Behringer Q502USB Mixer/audio interface
KRK Rokit 5 G3 monitors. I have a subwoofer, but these get great bass response for nearfield use.
Sennheiser HD650 headphones

Everything sounds great, but if there's a way for say, under $200, for me to noticeably improve the sound, that would be great.

It doesn't look like Behringer provides specs on the digital to audio converters, just the mixer output. Here are the specs on the Behringer USB Mixers: http://www.behringer.com/assets/Q1202US...B_M_EN.pdf

One thing I like about the Behringer is that I can play along with my iPad or smartphone. It would be great to get something that has a stereo input as well, but if not, I can use the Q502USB as just a mixer.

When looking for a DAC, should I be looking for a high SNR?

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

Well....from what I can see you're using a pair of HD650's without an amp....big no no

I would recommend any of these:

http://www.amazon.com/AUNE-T1-Amplifier...B00CHIJYGE

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/audioengine-d1 (great deal, but only 4 days to decide)

Get a good DAC/amp, and You'll probably notice a huge improvement in the pianos

Last edited by njaremko (05-06-2014 18:30)

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

I have a Focusrite (sp?) Saffire Pro 24 DSP. The audio interface is OK, but the important part is the DSP. It features something called Virtual Reference Monitoring. This basically simulates various professional mixing monitors, and rooms, when listening through headphones. The rooms are Professional studio, bedroom, and living room.

I brought this for mixing dance music late at night with headphones on, but it works beautifully with Pianoteq! When set to professional studio, it really sounds like your in a room with the piano. I think you might be able to just buy a plug in that does something similar, but of course you'd need a host sequencer to run it. Or you can just buy the vrm box, but I don't think that is an audio interface, just the vrm.

Can't remember what I paid for my interface though, sorry.

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

^^^ Stay away from DSP....ruins the sound (and pianoteq already does room simulation...double room simulation would be bad.)

Get yourself a good dac/amp and you'll hear the pianos shine

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

njaremko wrote:

Well....from what I can see you're using a pair of HD650's without an amp....big no no

I would recommend any of these:

http://www.amazon.com/AUNE-T1-Amplifier...B00CHIJYGE

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/audioengine-d1 (great deal, but only 4 days to decide)

Get a good DAC/amp, and You'll probably notice a huge improvement in the pianos

The Xenyx Q502USB drives my headphones very loud if necessary, so I don't understand why I would need a headphone amp.

However, at your behest, I purchased the Aune-T1 on Ebay for $159. I like that it has

* a high SNR
* headphone amp with output + RCA outputs (I'd prefer balanced 1/4" outputs)
* RCA inputs so I can play along with audio files on my smart phone.

If it sounds better than what I'm using, I'll add to this thread. Thanks!

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

beakybird wrote:

The Xenyx Q502USB drives my headphones very loud if necessary, so I don't understand why I would need a headphone amp.

However, at your behest, I purchased the Aune-T1 on Ebay for $159. I like that it has

* a high SNR
* headphone amp with output + RCA outputs (I'd prefer balanced 1/4" outputs)
* RCA inputs so I can play along with audio files on my smart phone.

If it sounds better than what I'm using, I'll add to this thread. Thanks!

The Xenyx Q502USB isn't an amp, it's a mixer, so it doesn't have high quality, clean output circuits. (Loud, but not clean/detailed)

If you ever want to improve your sound further, I would recommend rolling in a Siemens E88CC or an  Amperex 7308 (or a Phillips JAN 6922 tube if you want to spend less than $20 )

Last edited by njaremko (05-06-2014 19:30)

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

njaremko wrote:

^^^ Stay away from DSP....ruins the sound (and pianoteq already does room simulation...double room simulation would be bad.)

Get yourself a good dac/amp and you'll hear the pianos shine

I probably should have pointed out that I turn off Pianoteq's onboard reverb, and place the mics closer to the strings when using vrm. Actually, I turn it off when using it as a plugin as well because I have better dedicated reverb plugins that perform better. Out of interest, have you ever used the vrm I'm talking about? Not some genetic plugin, but the specific one I mentioned. Not trying to be defensive or anything, just asking.

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

Wallis85 wrote:

I probably should have pointed out that I turn off Pianoteq's onboard reverb, and place the mics closer to the strings when using vrm. Actually, I turn it off when using it as a plugin as well because I have better dedicated reverb plugins that perform better. Out of interest, have you ever used the vrm I'm talking about? Not some genetic plugin, but the specific one I mentioned. Not trying to be defensive or anything, just asking.

Yeah, I've used it. It's a decent dac/amp, but the VRM software is only amusing for a while. None of the monitors it simulates are of interest to me, and the simulation is mediocre at best.....but maybe I'm just spoiled by my Smyth SVS Realiser

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

njaremko wrote:

.....but maybe I'm just spoiled by my Smyth SVS Realiser

Yeah, that's probably it! Lol.

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

I just got the Aune T1, and it will not open with ASIO4ALL within Pianoteq 5, and it doesn't seem to have it's own ASIO drivers. With Windows Audio, I get 4.4ms latency and only 44,100Hz audio.

Is there an alternative to ASIO4ALL to use with Aune T1?

When the Aune T1 is plugged into my computer, ASIO devices will not open in Pianoteq 5.

Maybe I'll try to restart my computer.

Thanks, Larry

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

I'm very pleased with my NI Komplete Audio 6. Don't think it has much competition at or below $200. YMMV

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

I feel very unsophisticated, but while I'm waiting to get help on getting the Aune T1 to work with ASIO drivers in P5, I've been able to compare in P5 the Behringer Xenyx Q502USB mixer with it's dedicated ASIO drivers with the Aune T1 with Windows Audio, and an almost unnoticeable 4ms latency with 96,000Hz.

Just comparing sound quality, I can't really hear a difference when listening with my Sennheiser HD650 headphones. I don't think that in a blind test, I would be able to tell which is which.

I was able to tell a big difference between headphones last year when I was headphone shopping, but I guess the Audio Card is not as critical as the speakers and headphones are,

Maybe I wouldn't be able to get a job as a studio engineer.

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

beakybird wrote:

I just got the Aune T1, and it will not open with ASIO4ALL within Pianoteq 5, and it doesn't seem to have it's own ASIO drivers. With Windows Audio, I get 4.4ms latency and only 44,100Hz audio.

Is there an alternative to ASIO4ALL to use with Aune T1?

When the Aune T1 is plugged into my computer, ASIO devices will not open in Pianoteq 5.

Maybe I'll try to restart my computer.

Thanks, Larry

Mine works with ASIO4ALL, do you have the newest version? Also, are you running 5.0.1 because I couldn't get ASIO to work with 5.0

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

njaremko wrote:

Mine works with ASIO4ALL, do you have the newest version? Also, are you running 5.0.1 because I couldn't get ASIO to work with 5.0

Yes. With newest version of ASIO4ALL and newest version of P5. When the Aune T1 is on and plugged into my computer, I cannot get ASIO4ALL to open in the Options menu of P5. I get an error message that the device is not available.

I guess that since the Aune T1 with Windows Audio doesn't sound any better IMO than my Xenyx audio card with ASIO, I'll return the Aune T1. Maybe it would sound noticeably better if I let the tube burn in, but since I can't take advantage of low latency ASIO, it doesn't make sense for me to keep the card.

Thanks, however.

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

beakybird wrote:

Yes. With newest version of ASIO4ALL and newest version of P5. When the Aune T1 is on and plugged into my computer, I cannot get ASIO4ALL to open in the Options menu of P5. I get an error message that the device is not available.

I guess that since the Aune T1 with Windows Audio doesn't sound any better IMO than my Xenyx audio card with ASIO, I'll return the Aune T1. Maybe it would sound noticeably better if I let the tube burn in, but since I can't take advantage of low latency ASIO, it doesn't make sense for me to keep the card.

Thanks, however.

Did you open ASIO4ALL and make sure that the Aune T1 is enabled?

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

njaremko wrote:

Did you open ASIO4ALL and make sure that the Aune T1 is enabled?

Of course I did! I spent a lot of time trying to tweak things. I even found another ASIO driver (that cost $49, but I downloaded a demo version). It didn't work with Pianoteq, and when I uninstalled it, it also took away my computer's ability to recognize the Aune T1. It now shows a generic USB volume.

It was dumb for me to spend time on this because I didn't hear any improvement over what I'm getting. Maybe there would be something noticeable with the burn in of the tube, or if I upgraded to an expensive tube.

I think I'll stick with what I have. It's definitely good enough for me to get lost in the music. And it's got inputs for a mic w/ phantom power, and another set of stereo ins, the headphone output can go so loud, I could blow my ears off, so I don't see why I would need a headphone amp.

I start to think about the Victrola days. People would cry tears or whoop it up when they heard a scratchy record played on one of those things.

Today, an audiophile can be listening to a magnum opus on a $50,000 system, and instead of enjoying the amazing fidelity, he's thinking, "Maybe it would sound better if I bought the speaker cables that are covered with gemstones that promise to increase the harmonic resonance."

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

The last week I've been playing with the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2. I noticed that to get this audio device loud enough to power my Sennheiser HD650 300ohm headphones to full volume, I had to turn up the volume of the piano in the Pianoteq interface. I started to notice some distortion that made me think that I would need a headphone amp to go with this.

I had time today to compare the Scarlett 2i2 to the Behringer Q502USB using Pianoteq. The Scarlett is only USB powered. The Behringer unit is AC powered and makes the headphones much, much louder. 

Still I noticed that both sound cards sounded better when I played Pianoteq with my much cheaper Audio Technica ATH-MS50 headphones. This surprised me, because when I had A/B'd these headphones months ago with a pricey Sound Blaster PCI audio interface that had a dedicated headphone amplifier, the Sennheiser's came out on top.

So Njaremko is right. a 300Ohm headphone needs a headphone amp.

Using the Audio Technica headphones, I compared the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 to the Behringer Q502USB. I noticed absolutely no difference in any range of the piano. The Behringer is listed as a 16 bit interface, but in ASIO4ALL, it says 32 bit while the Scarlett says 24 bit. No matter. I could not hear a single difference between these two interfaces after an hour of A/B'ing.

Only one thing, when direct monitoring is turned on in the Scarlett 2i2, there is a light hiss regardless of there being a signal. The Behringer is super quiet when I have my smart phone headphone jack plugged in.

So the Behringer gets the edge. I'm going to look for some lower impedance headphones to replace the Audio Technica's. They sound great, but they squeeze my head.

Pianoteq 6 Std, Bluthner, Model B, Grotian, YC5, Hohner, Kremsegg #1, Electric Pianos. Roland FP-90, Windows 10 quad core, Xenyx Q802USB, Yamaha HS8 monitors, Audio Technica
ATH-M50x headphones.

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

Differences between audio interfaces are mainly stability, latency and noise. Latency is largely irrelevant for playback (we are usually talking about absolute differences of less than 5-10 ms). If the Behringer is stable and quiet, why not. Apart from that, there could be aliasing distortion if the manufacturer really does not now what they are doing, but let's hope this is not the case with Behringer.

As a rule of thumb, most audio interfaces need an external amp when the headphones have more than 80 Ohms. Not a hard rule, but sums up my experiences in that regard.

Last edited by kalessin (07-07-2014 09:15)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

kalessin wrote:

Differences between audio interfaces are mainly stability, latency and noise.

... and some USB-Audiocards have interchannel-phase issues. Somewhere on the net I saw pictures, that showed a phase difference of one sample between the right and left stereo-channel of the Behringer UCA-222/202. I am not saying, this is audible, but when those two channels are mixed to mono, you have treble cancellation.

Otherwise this is a cheap and good USB-Interface, I used it with Pianoteq too for a while.

Last edited by groovy (07-07-2014 10:11)

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

...for recording purposes, I would never ever use Behringer equipment anyway. Their monitors are actually rather nice (the 'Thruth' series), and a USB audio thingy purely for playback purposes, why not. But recording? Nope. Steinberg, Focusrite, maybe Tascam, maybe Zoom. Not Behringer. But that's just my $0.02.

Edit: that 1 sample difference is apparently a known problem of the used DAC (a TI PCM290x). It is rather telling that Behringer have not compensated for this, as the problem is even documented by Texas Instruments and is rather easily corrigible in the driver. However, in practice it should not be too much of a problem and it can of course be corrected in the computer, if the user knows about it.

Last edited by kalessin (07-07-2014 12:31)
Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

kalessin wrote:

[..] that 1 sample difference is apparently a known problem of the used DAC (a TI PCM290x). It is rather telling that Behringer have not compensated for this,[..]

Yes, but I don't know, if they fixed it in the current models. - Anyway, I would use the UCA just in Pianoteq's monophonic mode - just my opinion ;-)

Re: Audio Card Recommendation Please

And to be completely fair: a difference of just 1 sample at 48kHz corresponds to spatial difference of about 7 millimeters. Almost nobody will position microphones or speakers that precisely, and their active area is usually larger as well. So a usual recording will always include lots of beating frequency mixtures anyway.

Pianoteq 6 Standard (Steinway D&B, Grotrian, Petrof, Steingraeber, Bechstein, Blüthner, K2, YC5, U4, Kremsegg 1&2, Karsten, Electric, Hohner)