Topic: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

Hello,

It is just for the fun, but I was thinking that it would be cool to have an option that detunes the piano a little every day, like a real one, in a future update.
When activated, the sound could lose a minimal amount of its normal tuning every day. And after 6 or 8 months the result woud be a really bad tuned piano. Then you could retune it to a normal tuning with a click on a button. I know it is a little crazy and it is just for fun but I said that because the regularity and precision of the sound is somewhere a boring factor on DP and software pianos.

Ok, it is just an idea...

Thanks to all the Pianoteq team for the last release

Last edited by stamkorg (27-05-2014 13:50)

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

stamkorg wrote:

It is just for the fun, but I was thinking that it would be cool to have an option that detunes the piano a little every day, like a real one, in a future update.

You know about the 'Condition' control at the bottom of the Pianoteq interface, right?

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

I was thinking that it would be cool to have an option that detunes the piano a little every day, like a real one, in a future update

Sure ! But would you be ready to purchase a virtual tuning on our webstore to retune your piano ?

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

If Modarrt create a algorithm to detune a piano a bit everyday, people will ask for controls do simulate many aspects on the piano aging, like moisture, temperature, sea air, seismic activity, and a option to connect pianoteq to the website from weather prediction.

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

julien wrote:

I was thinking that it would be cool to have an option that detunes the piano a little every day, like a real one, in a future update

Sure ! But would you be ready to purchase a virtual tuning on our webstore to retune your piano ?


Haha, no it would be integrated with the licence purchase!

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

Beto-Music wrote:

If Modarrt create a algorithm to detune a piano a bit everyday, people will ask for controls do simulate many aspects on the piano aging, like moisture, temperature, sea air, seismic activity, and a option to connect pianoteq to the website from weather prediction.

Yes,
Ok, I am laughing reading the answers,
But now, seriously, what do you think? It is totally crazy but it would be the ultimate experience, to play on a virtual piano that has the same reactions as a real one in that aspect.

Last edited by stamkorg (27-05-2014 16:43)

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

stamkorg wrote:
julien wrote:

I was thinking that it would be cool to have an option that detunes the piano a little every day, like a real one, in a future update

Sure ! But would you be ready to purchase a virtual tuning on our webstore to retune your piano ?


Haha, no it would be integrated with the licence purchase!

Well, we could do the same as acoustic piano resellers often do: offer the first 2 tunings for free!

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

stamkorg wrote:

Yes,
Ok, I am laughing reading the answers,
But now, seriously, what do you think? It is totally crazy but it would be the ultimate experience, to play on a virtual piano that has the same reactions as a real one in that aspect.

Hopefully Modartt don't forget the turnoff button of that function .

I think they should concentrate on further improvements of the sound!

formerly known as Notyetconvinced

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

Well, it would be fun.

But the detuning it's also related to more aspects, like the most used keys, the Keys striked with more energy.

And would be very fun to have a virtual tuning tool, to be placed on each string pin, rotating to get the tone manually string by string.

PunBB bbcode test

It would work almost like a training for tune real pianos


stamkorg wrote:
Beto-Music wrote:

If Modarrt create a algorithm to detune a piano a bit everyday, people will ask for controls do simulate many aspects on the piano aging, like moisture, temperature, sea air, seismic activity, and a option to connect pianoteq to the website from weather prediction.

Yes,
Ok, I am laughing reading the answers,
But now, seriously, what do you think? It is totally crazy but it would be the ultimate experience, to play on a virtual piano that has the same reactions as a real one in that aspect.

Last edited by Beto-Music (28-05-2014 13:37)

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

As long as I don't start finding virtual watermark stains on my Bluethner from chilled champagne glasses carelessly left by virtual guests! 

    -Perry-

Last edited by Studiocat (28-05-2014 08:44)

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

... and of course, you could choose the brand & model of your virtual tuning hammer

http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

Beto-Music wrote:

Well, it would be fun.

But the detuning it's also related to more aspects, liek the most used kays, the Keys striked with more energy.

And would be very fun to have a virtual tuning tool, to be placed on each string pin, rotating to get the tone manually string by string.

PunBB bbcode test

It would work almost like a training for tune real pianos


stamkorg wrote:
Beto-Music wrote:

If Modarrt create a algorithm to detune a piano a bit everyday, people will ask for controls do simulate many aspects on the piano aging, like moisture, temperature, sea air, seismic activity, and a option to connect pianoteq to the website from weather prediction.

Yes,
Ok, I am laughing reading the answers,
But now, seriously, what do you think? It is totally crazy but it would be the ultimate experience, to play on a virtual piano that has the same reactions as a real one in that aspect.


You are right, it seems to be a complex subject.
At first the idea was to go from a standard tuned to a "bad honkytonk" in, for example, 365 steps and to apply 1 step every day.

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

julien wrote:

Sure ! But would you be ready to purchase a virtual tuning on our webstore to retune your piano ?

A virtual piano tuner? Why not then a virtual Michelle Pfeiffer? Modartt has the pianos. The forum has the pianists (and the audience). Everything is almost there for the ultimate virtual simulation of... The Fabulous Baker Boys (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097322/). 

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

hyper.real wrote:

A virtual piano tuner? Why not then a virtual Michelle Pfeiffer? Modartt has the pianos. The forum has the pianists (and the audience). Everything is almost there for the ultimate virtual simulation of... The Fabulous Baker Boys (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097322/). 


They already did it !!!


PunBB bbcode test



But Modartt kept it for themselves.
The first found selfish side of this company so far.


Last edited by Beto-Music (28-05-2014 13:51)

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

stamkorg wrote:

Hello,

It is just for the fun, but I was thinking that it would be cool to have an option that detunes the piano a little every day, like a real one, in a future update.
When activated, the sound could lose a minimal amount of its normal tuning every day. And after 6 or 8 months the result woud be a really bad tuned piano. Then you could retune it to a normal tuning with a click on a button. I know it is a little crazy and it is just for fun but I said that because the regularity and precision of the sound is somewhere a boring factor on DP and software pianos.

Ok, it is just an idea...

Thanks to all the Pianoteq team for the last release

So, I'm wondering; does it only detune when it's used every day?  What if you don't use it for a month - a real piano would still suffer some detuning without being used.  How does the model account for this?

One of the better features of PT is that is doesn't go out of tune.

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

Glenn NK wrote:
stamkorg wrote:

Hello,

It is just for the fun, but I was thinking that it would be cool to have an option that detunes the piano a little every day, like a real one, in a future update.
When activated, the sound could lose a minimal amount of its normal tuning every day. And after 6 or 8 months the result woud be a really bad tuned piano. Then you could retune it to a normal tuning with a click on a button. I know it is a little crazy and it is just for fun but I said that because the regularity and precision of the sound is somewhere a boring factor on DP and software pianos.

Ok, it is just an idea...

Thanks to all the Pianoteq team for the last release

So, I'm wondering; does it only detune when it's used every day?  What if you don't use it for a month - a real piano would still suffer some detuning without being used.  How does the model account for this?

One of the better features of PT is that is doesn't go out of tune.


The idea is to be able to reproduce the natural evolution of the piano after the last tuning. So yes if you don't play it for 1 month, you should hear a little variation in the tuning.

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

The "natural evolution" of a piano becoming detuned is generally corrected by a technician.

I've never understood why anyone would want to emulate a piano that's out of tune.

Honky-tonk pianos shouldn't be revered, they should be destroyed. WINK.

How long would you tolerate a singer that was always off key?

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

Honk Thonk it's a style, and have it's own tuning, otherwise the characteristic aspect would be out of order with some keys more "tonky" than others.

About singers off key... You make remamber Paul McCartney in recente years, trying to singing notes he can't reach any longer:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ox-Syj9QFM


I hope some treatment can help hin.


About detuning, a piano can get out tune with variation in temperature, and get back to almost the normal after temperature go back to usual (same when was tuned). Even without play, by only the effect of  time, a piano can get out tune.


Glenn NK wrote:

The "natural evolution" of a piano becoming detuned is generally corrected by a technician.

I've never understood why anyone would want to emulate a piano that's out of tune.

Honky-tonk pianos shouldn't be revered, they should be destroyed. WINK.

How long would you tolerate a singer that was always off key?

Last edited by Beto-Music (29-05-2014 01:24)

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

Beto-Music wrote:

. . .

But the detuning it's also related to more aspects, like the most used keys, the Keys striked [sic] with more energy.

And would be very fun to have a virtual tuning tool, to be placed on each string pin, rotating to get the tone manually string by string.

. . .

Hello Beto-Music,

As a professional piano tuner, I used to "age" my own presets of Pianoteq PRO (then Version 4.0 and 4.5) by slightly increasing and randomizing the three levels of hammer hardness in the middle three octaves, and similarly raising and randomizing the unison width, corresponding to those areas of the keyboard that would receive the most play.  In addition, I used to create an audible "break" that corresponded to the changes in keyboard scaling from uni- to bi- to tri-chords (strings per note).  To this day, my personal presets have slightly randomized key strike positions, and I tend to increase the damper decay time for the lowest notes, whose heavily wound strings contain the most vibrating momentum by way of their increased masses.

Actually, by setting the "condition" slider to a moderate amount (no more than 25% of full scale) accomplishes much of what I've set out to do.  The main difference is that I tend to age my own presets to represent those middle octaves of the keyboard that receive the most use and abuse.

Hopefully you find this information to be helpful.

Cheers,

Joe

P.S.  For your information, the demos I have provided to Modartt do NOT use these aged presets.

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

Glenn NK wrote:
stamkorg wrote:

Hello,

It is just for the fun, but I was thinking that it would be cool to have an option that detunes the piano a little every day, like a real one, in a future update.
When activated, the sound could lose a minimal amount of its normal tuning every day. And after 6 or 8 months the result woud be a really bad tuned piano. Then you could retune it to a normal tuning with a click on a button. I know it is a little crazy and it is just for fun but I said that because the regularity and precision of the sound is somewhere a boring factor on DP and software pianos.

Ok, it is just an idea...

Thanks to all the Pianoteq team for the last release

So, I'm wondering; does it only detune when it's used every day?  What if you don't use it for a month - a real piano would still suffer some detuning without being used.  How does the model account for this?

One of the better features of PT is that is doesn't go out of tune.


The idea is to be able to reproduce the natural evolution of the piano after the last tuning. So yes if you don't play it for 1 month, you should hear a little variation in the tuning.

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

PTQ detune depending on PC processor temperature .... & if an old piano model , You can hear all pedal clicks & cracks, & when you beat sound deck or strings by hand, can hear string resonance , depending, which keys are on for a moment , or sustain pedal is on or not . Or if PTQ have audio in (virtually it means speakers in front of sound board) we can resonate audio in signal by piano strings resonance , - piano reverberation, real time. Piano hammer hardness properties ( hammer from soft to metallic or glass )  and regulation . Or strings material modelling , - if strings will be nylon or different metal hardness . Possibility to change sound board material (wood , glass , metal, plastic & so on ...) . We can virtually make any kind of not existing pianos. & another  future , instead of <<random>> button, would be better to have random tune values , which give to us tune this parameters in real time (as a radio receiver) , not step by step. Have a fun !!!

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

jcfelice88keys wrote:
Beto-Music wrote:

. . .

But the detuning it's also related to more aspects, like the most used keys, the Keys striked [sic] with more energy.

And would be very fun to have a virtual tuning tool, to be placed on each string pin, rotating to get the tone manually string by string.

. . .

Hello Beto-Music,

As a professional piano tuner, I used to "age" my own presets of Pianoteq PRO (then Version 4.0 and 4.5) by slightly increasing and randomizing the three levels of hammer hardness in the middle three octaves, and similarly raising and randomizing the unison width, corresponding to those areas of the keyboard that would receive the most play.  In addition, I used to create an audible "break" that corresponded to the changes in keyboard scaling from uni- to bi- to tri-chords (strings per note).  To this day, my personal presets have slightly randomized key strike positions, and I tend to increase the damper decay time for the lowest notes, whose heavily wound strings contain the most vibrating momentum by way of their increased masses.

Actually, by setting the "condition" slider to a moderate amount (no more than 25% of full scale) accomplishes much of what I've set out to do.  The main difference is that I tend to age my own presets to represent those middle octaves of the keyboard that receive the most use and abuse.

Hopefully you find this information to be helpful.

Cheers,

Joe

P.S.  For your information, the demos I have provided to Modartt do NOT use these aged presets.

It is interesting, but then again, the sound is static in that aspect. A very subtle "auto detune" function would make the thing dynamic.

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

Glenn NK wrote:

The "natural evolution" of a piano becoming detuned is generally corrected by a technician.

I agree, but in the real world your piano is in tune only after a technician has tune it.
90% of the time, we play on pianos that have been little detuned by the time or by our playing. That's not good but that's how things are.

I don't want to play on a detuned piano. I just think that I could live with a very subtle change day after day if that makes me feel I am playing on an alive thing.

But, to be clear, I have no complaint about Pianoteq, I love this softawre and particularly the V5. It is just an opinion on a thread

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

As long as you hold on to its stability, someone embodies their dreams into reality!..

Last edited by Shumas (29-05-2014 12:32)

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

Very interesting Joe...  Thanks.

How much is the randomness of the condition slider, I wonder...

Supose you adjust the condition slider to 10%, and them to 20%, and them to 30% and finally 40%...  And return gradually again in these same 4 steps.  Are the hammers adjustments reversed back to same as 30%, 20% and 10% again, or the agorithm change and make new random selection of intensity and sellect other hammers to other intensities distribution (keeping average to the sellect slider intensity).
If the slider keep no randomness, the effect would be always to the same "pattern" (variation of intensity per key/string)

I presume the condition slider do not emulate some agging aspects, like agging of soundboard (or few cracks on it) and rust of the metal components.

Since you are a piano tuner... What do you think abou the idea of a Pianoteq Pro Masters version?  A new Pro version to allow to adjust the shape of hammers (and needling) and the weight of the hammers)?


I hope Modartt don't take me seriously, cause we are exagerating and we don't want do dirve them crasy.   
:-)


jcfelice88keys wrote:

Hello Beto-Music,

As a professional piano tuner, I used to "age" my own presets of Pianoteq PRO (then Version 4.0 and 4.5) by slightly increasing and randomizing the three levels of hammer hardness in the middle three octaves, and similarly raising and randomizing the unison width, corresponding to those areas of the keyboard that would receive the most play.  In addition, I used to create an audible "break" that corresponded to the changes in keyboard scaling from uni- to bi- to tri-chords (strings per note).  To this day, my personal presets have slightly randomized key strike positions, and I tend to increase the damper decay time for the lowest notes, whose heavily wound strings contain the most vibrating momentum by way of their increased masses.

Actually, by setting the "condition" slider to a moderate amount (no more than 25% of full scale) accomplishes much of what I've set out to do.  The main difference is that I tend to age my own presets to represent those middle octaves of the keyboard that receive the most use and abuse.

Hopefully you find this information to be helpful.

Cheers,

Joe

P.S.  For your information, the demos I have provided to Modartt do NOT use these aged presets.

Last edited by Beto-Music (29-05-2014 14:56)

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

As a professional piano tuner, I used to "age" my own presets of Pianoteq PRO (then Version 4.0 and 4.5) by slightly increasing and randomizing the three levels of hammer hardness in the middle three octaves, and similarly raising and randomizing the unison width, corresponding to those areas of the keyboard that would receive the most play.  In addition, I used to create an audible "break" that corresponded to the changes in keyboard scaling from uni- to bi- to tri-chords (strings per note).  To this day, my personal presets have slightly randomized key strike positions, and I tend to increase the damper decay time for the lowest notes, whose heavily wound strings contain the most vibrating momentum by way of their increased masses.

I would like to mention another real-life aspect of aging grand pianos (not upright ones).
The effectivity of the leftpedal (softpedal, una corda pedal) isn't mentioned yet. When a grand piano is aging the difference between normal sound and una corda sound increases drastically. This is caused by the fact that the una corda pedal effect is not used frequently. The place on the hammer where it touches the strings is different when una corda is used. The hammer hardness is lower in the una corda position because that part of the hammer has suffered less and is used less. On top of that when we do use the una corda pedal we usually don't play fortissimo but more often between pianissimo and mezzopiano. All this ads to the fact that the una-corda part of the hammer is aging slower than the more frequently (mis-)used normal part of the hammer. Compare a new and/or properly serviced grand piano and an aged one and you will hear what I mean.

Whether we want this unwanted (?) side-effect as part of the Pianoteq piano modelling is another question :-)

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

Don't forget about effects of termite and woodworm.

;-)

Last edited by Beto-Music (29-05-2014 15:33)

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

And it should be remembered Muses wings flapping sounds around you, when you create a masterpiece.

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

Shumas wrote:

And it should be remembered Muses wings flapping sounds around you, when you create a masterpiece.

Merci pour cette analyse aprofondie de la question.

Le problème avec ce post c'est qu'il est assez rapidement parti sur le ton de l'ironie alors que la question de départ, à savoir l'évolution du son sur une échelle temporelle de quelques mois, a le mérite d'avoir été posée et ce de manière sérieuse.
Maintenant, est-ce intéressant, pertinent, souhaitable, faisable? ça c'est une autre question qui peut faire l'objet d'un échange constructif. Ce n'est pas parce que cela parait farfelu pour les uns que ça l'est pour les autres. En ce qui me concerne, jouer du piano dans un environnement Taj Mahal, ou avec des cordes de 15 mètres de long, ça ne m'intéresse absolument pas, mais cette possibilité a le mérite d'exister.
Mais l'ironie gratuite ne sert à rien.

Ce sera donc ma dernière intervention à ce sujet.

Cordialement,

SK

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

Le problème avec ce post c'est qu'il est assez rapidement parti sur le ton de l'ironie alors que la question de départ, à savoir l'évolution du son sur une échelle temporelle de quelques mois, a le mérite d'avoir été posée et ce de manière sérieuse.

Yes, this thread has an overdose of smiley emoticons. But if you read carefully there are some interesting and serious contributions to be found this thread also.

- Imperfections are part of authenticity, but when do they become undesirable?
- Modelling can be used to mimic imperfections
- Modelling can also be used to repair imperfections caused by aging (The Kremsegg collection, KIViR project)
- User tweakable parameters can give the user freedom of choice between perfection and imperfection.

Re: A feature that would be fun for a next upgrade

I'm a bit curious curious.  Why did you wrote in french this time?

I would love to learn to speak and write in french, and I intent to, but at the moment I still need to use translators.

Some jokes are not ironies itself, but funny ways to express how we believe in the quality and potential of modeling technology and how we appreciate it.
It's our way to express thanks to the good work Modartt did. So it's not a negative thing.


stamkorg wrote:
Shumas wrote:

And it should be remembered Muses wings flapping sounds around you, when you create a masterpiece.

Merci pour cette analyse aprofondie de la question.

Le problème avec ce post c'est qu'il est assez rapidement parti sur le ton de l'ironie alors que la question de départ, à savoir l'évolution du son sur une échelle temporelle de quelques mois, a le mérite d'avoir été posée et ce de manière sérieuse.
Maintenant, est-ce intéressant, pertinent, souhaitable, faisable? ça c'est une autre question qui peut faire l'objet d'un échange constructif. Ce n'est pas parce que cela parait farfelu pour les uns que ça l'est pour les autres. En ce qui me concerne, jouer du piano dans un environnement Taj Mahal, ou avec des cordes de 15 mètres de long, ça ne m'intéresse absolument pas, mais cette possibilité a le mérite d'exister.
Mais l'ironie gratuite ne sert à rien.

Ce sera donc ma dernière intervention à ce sujet.

Cordialement,

SK

Last edited by Beto-Music (30-05-2014 15:00)