Topic by Modellingoptimist

  • Avatar
  • Modellingoptimist
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 11-12-2013
  • Posts: 262

Topic: Noises

Hello everybody,

I think I found one if not the main reason why Pianoteq has not convinced me yet in terms of real sound compared to my reference point, the Galaxy Vintage D, which I own: To me the noises in Pianoteq behave not as real. E.g. hammer noises in Vintage D to me sound way more organic as their character changes more than in Pianoteq over the keyboard range. Furthermore there is a knocking noise against the piano body which I miss in Pianoteq.

Tweaking around in both I found out that there are different terms used for the parameters. E.g. "Key release noise" in Pianoteq is comparable with "Hammer Noises" and not "Release Samples" in Vintage D.

To make you understand what I mean, please watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a0ND7f7L5A

To me "Release Samples" is crucial for realness of sound. Where is it in Pianoteq?

Thanks!

formerly known as Notyetconvinced

Reply by EvilDragon

  • Avatar
  • EvilDragon
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Croatia
  • Registered: 27-06-2008
  • Posts: 3,994

Re: Noises

Release samples are not necessary in Pianoteq because, you know, it doesn't work that way. It models the behaviour of keys completely, so the only parameter that might be comparable to this is Key release noise. Hammer noise is also a parameter in Pianoteq, and a very obvious one at that. I would suggest tweaking the soundboard parameters to get what you want (Impendance, Cutoff, Q, and also Sympathetic resonance). This will give you more things happening in the release phase of the sound.

Last edited by EvilDragon (16-01-2014 16:04)
Hard work and guts!

Reply by Philippe Guillaume

  • Avatar
  • Philippe Guillaume
  • Admin
  • Offline
  • Registered: 25-04-2007
  • Posts: 5,405

Re: Noises

Regarding what happens during note release, the main thing is the dampers falling on the strings. There is a parameter in Pianoteq that changes the release duration: it is the "Damping duration" in the Action panel, which controls the efficiency of the damper. It is particularly noticeable in the bass range, try it by pushing it to the right! You can even modify the "Damper position", which has an effect on which overtones are damped less efficiently (those whose nodes are under the damper).

Philippe Guillaume's Website

Reply by LTECpiano

  • Avatar
  • LTECpiano
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Columbia, SC
  • Registered: 05-05-2011
  • Posts: 697

Re: Noises

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

Regarding what happens during note release, the main thing is the dampers falling on the strings. There is a parameter in Pianoteq that changes the release duration: it is the "Damping duration" in the Action panel, which controls the efficiency of the damper. It is particularly noticeable in the bass range, try it by pushing it to the right! You can even modify the "Damper position", which has an effect on which overtones are damped less efficiently (those whose nodes are under the damper).

I made a short post yesterday in the off topic thread regarding whether or not let-off velocity would be able to render a similar effect as that of half-pedaling . . that is to say,  letting a key up quite slowly would be like listening to the damper slowly close on the string . . like on an acoustic piano.  I have calibrated my keys for let-off velocity using the Pianoteq calibration window.  (I have the PnoScan sensor in my keyboard )

Lanny

LTECpiano's Website

Reply by custral

  • Avatar
  • custral
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 22-08-2010
  • Posts: 288

Re: Noises

The 'Action Panel' mentioned above is got up to view by clicking the 'ACTION' button, visible bottom-right of the GUI. The sliders there account for many of the incidental noises in that vid, and at least one besides. And if you have the Pro version, you can additionally modify the Key Release Noise for any note (default set is a fair collection of random values, but your pet keys, or ranges thru to 88, can thus get special treatment)

With Pro, same goes for Hammer Noise, Strike Point, Blooming Energy, Blooming Inertia, Damper Position, Damper Duration, Damper Noise; all note-variable. So is Tine Noise (what this finick may be not sure, but perhaps it's associated to the ring let out by the hammer-sticks when dropped, whose pitch becomes the basis for rejection with Steinways).

Incidental noises not presently covered are Sostenuto and Una Corda pedals - both of which would be not much use, and difficult to implement only from the lack of slider-space. 

Plus Una Corda noise in real instruments would probably draw universal votes for noise-MOST-unwanted. Plain egregious in quiet music, unnoticeable otherwise.

Last edited by custral (16-01-2014 21:41)

Reply by Modellingoptimist

  • Avatar
  • Modellingoptimist
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 11-12-2013
  • Posts: 262

Re: Noises

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

Regarding what happens during note release, the main thing is the dampers falling on the strings. There is a parameter in Pianoteq that changes the release duration: it is the "Damping duration" in the Action panel, which controls the efficiency of the damper. It is particularly noticeable in the bass range, try it by pushing it to the right! You can even modify the "Damper position", which has an effect on which overtones are damped less efficiently (those whose nodes are under the damper).

Ok, following this advice I got closer to what I think is the right length of the release phase. But I can't find a damper position that gives me the right overtone behaviour. I compared the overtone behaviour of the Vintage D with that of my real Ibach and it is quite similar. Because they are from different manufacturers + the Ibach is a baby grand it seems that Vintage D is close to how it should be.

I still haven't found a way to get that hammer knocking noise coming from the piano body in Pianoteq.

If it is true that you can tweak everything as it should be, then to me the presets do not reflect the capabilities of Pianoteq yet. This should be different in future versions, I think. I would also welcome an option with less single tweakable parameters but with some kind of aggregate parameters, meaning when you tweak one of them a bunch of others change the way they do on the real thing as well.

The reason why I'm not just fine with my Vintage D is that I'm afraid of taking it on stage plus modeling is said to have the best playability. That's why I have high hopes on the progress of this technology.

Last edited by Modellingoptimist (17-01-2014 13:30)
formerly known as Notyetconvinced

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,501

Re: Noises

Notyetconvinced wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:

Regarding what happens during note release, the main thing is the dampers falling on the strings. There is a parameter in Pianoteq that changes the release duration: it is the "Damping duration" in the Action panel, which controls the efficiency of the damper. It is particularly noticeable in the bass range, try it by pushing it to the right! You can even modify the "Damper position", which has an effect on which overtones are damped less efficiently (those whose nodes are under the damper).

Ok, following this advice I got closer to what I think is the right length of the release phase. But I can't find a damper position that gives me the right overtone behaviour. I compared the overtone behaviour of the Vintage D with that of my real Ibach and it is quite similar. Because they are from different manufacturers + the Ibach is a baby grand it seems that Vintage D is close to how it should be.

I still haven't found a way to get that hammer knocking noise coming from the piano body in Pianoteq.

If it is true that you can tweak everything as it should be, then to me the presets do not reflect the capabilities of Pianoteq yet. This should be different in future versions, I think. I would also welcome an option with less single tweakable parameters but with some kind of aggregate parameters, meaning when you tweak one of them a bunch of others change the way they do on the real thing as well.

The reason why I'm not just fine with my Vintage D is that I'm afraid of taking it on stage plus modeling is said to have the best playability. That's why I have high hopes on the progress of this technology.

Could you post a few brief mp3's, when you get a chance, so we can all be on the same page in listening for what you like and dislike? Just some short demo's that isolate each of the three things that you mention--the overtones, the tone of the release\post-damper decay, the hammer knocking?

Last edited by Jake Johnson (17-01-2014 18:37)

Reply by Modellingoptimist

  • Avatar
  • Modellingoptimist
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 11-12-2013
  • Posts: 262

Re: Noises

Jake Johnson wrote:

Could you post a few brief mp3's, when you get a chance, so we can all be on the same page in listening for what you like and dislike? Just some short demo's that isolate each of the three things that you mention--the overtones, the tone of the release\post-damper decay, the hammer knocking?

Well, it's all in the above posted video. For overtones and decay listen from about 1:48 to 1:54 and for knocking noise from 2:30 to 2:34.

PT to me also lacks knocking noise in the attack phase which is inherent in the samples of Vintage D.

formerly known as Notyetconvinced

Reply by jarosujo

  • Avatar
  • jarosujo
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 17-11-2013
  • Posts: 56

Re: Noises

Did you ever consider that all those noises are actually defects ? I bet acoustic piano designers would pay fortune to get rid of them :-)

Reply by Philippe Guillaume

  • Avatar
  • Philippe Guillaume
  • Admin
  • Offline
  • Registered: 25-04-2007
  • Posts: 5,405

Re: Noises

Notyetconvinced wrote:

Well, it's all in the above posted video. For overtones and decay listen from about 1:48 to 1:54 and for knocking noise from 2:30 to 2:34.

The sequence from 2:30 to 2:34 is related to sympathetic resonances which you can adjust in Pianoteq Standard and Pro via the "Sympathetic resonance" and "Duplex scale"  sliders from the Design panel. The sympathetic resonances that are modelled in Pianoteq are produced on a real piano by the string parts that are hit by the hammer, whereas the duplex resonances are produced by the other parts of the strings which are resonating freely all the time (front and rear duplex scales,...).

The hammer noise (the knock produced by the hammer hitting the string) you are mentioning can also be adjusted in the Pianoteq Voicing panel.

On a side note, when you release a key on an acoustic grand, there is no hammer noise but action noise, mainly produced by the escapement returning to its rest position and the key returning to its rest position.

Philippe Guillaume's Website

Reply by Modellingoptimist

  • Avatar
  • Modellingoptimist
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 11-12-2013
  • Posts: 262

Re: Noises

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

On a side note, when you release a key on an acoustic grand, there is no hammer noise but action noise, mainly produced by the escapement returning to its rest position and the key returning to its rest position.

Hah, action noise that's what I meant with "knocking noise". Thanks.

But "Sympathetic resonance" and "Duplex scale" do not have an effect when I strike a single key like the guy in the video. I just haven't found a damper position which gives me the right tuning of the resonances.

formerly known as Notyetconvinced

Reply by Philippe Guillaume

  • Avatar
  • Philippe Guillaume
  • Admin
  • Offline
  • Registered: 25-04-2007
  • Posts: 5,405

Re: Noises

Notyetconvinced wrote:
Philippe Guillaume wrote:

On a side note, when you release a key on an acoustic grand, there is no hammer noise but action noise, mainly produced by the escapement returning to its rest position and the key returning to its rest position.

Hah, action noise that's what I meant with "knocking noise". Thanks.

But "Sympathetic resonance" and "Duplex scale" do not have an effect when I strike a single key like the guy in the video. I just haven't found a damper position which gives me the right tuning of the resonances.

You don't need to modify the damper position for that. Try for example increasing slightly the "Aliquot strings" parameter in the Blüthner (the latest Pianoteq grand piano) and you should clearly hear all those resonances.

Philippe Guillaume's Website

Reply by delt

  • Avatar
  • delt
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Montréal, Canada
  • Registered: 11-06-2013
  • Posts: 401

Re: Noises

jarosujo wrote:

Did you ever consider that all those noises are actually defects ? I bet acoustic piano designers would pay fortune to get rid of them :-)

I think of that too, each time i read these kind of discussions.

http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit

Reply by Modellingoptimist

  • Avatar
  • Modellingoptimist
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 11-12-2013
  • Posts: 262

Re: Noises

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

You don't need to modify the damper position for that. Try for example increasing slightly the "Aliquot strings" parameter in the Blüthner (the latest Pianoteq grand piano) and you should clearly hear all those resonances.

I get the best results by tweaking "Aliquot strings" + "Damper duration". The rest is personal taste, I'd say. Thanks for your advice. It would be nice if this was addressed in future presets.

I see the Blüthner also has nice action noises . I would welcome this in the other pianos, especially the Steinway, as well.

formerly known as Notyetconvinced