Topic by delt

  • Avatar
  • delt
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Montréal, Canada
  • Registered: 11-06-2013
  • Posts: 401

Topic: K1 sounds distant and too "metallic"

So i've been futzing around with the K1 sound recently, and i find it sounds kind of "distant" compared to say, the D1 or Blüthner using all the exact same parameters. There's also a slight "metallic" sound to it, that i can't seem to get rid of.

Anyone else think so? Maybe it's a "leftover" from previous versions of Pianoteq.....?

Last edited by delt (23-09-2013 22:20)
http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit

Reply by User123123123

  • Avatar
  • User123123123
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 16-09-2013
  • Posts: 63

Re: K1 sounds distant and too "metallic"

+1 all of what you say

Is K1 an older generation model? It definitley can't keep up with D4 or Blüthner. I use the K1 for pop/rock stuff where I need a bright piano that sits in the mix. For that it is ok, though on the sustain the metallic sound is quite bad especially if you boost treble. If you fiddle with microphones you can improve the distant sound a little, but not much. Well, to summarize I don't use the K1 very often.

Reply by Beto-Music

  • Avatar
  • Beto-Music
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 02-05-2007
  • Posts: 2,786

Re: K1 sounds distant and too "metallic"

I would not call K1 such old, neither new.

I would say middle aged.   


:-)


That's why K1 it's not in the same level of quality as the Bluthner.


The next grand piano model for pianoteq will certainly be better than any other we know.

Last edited by Beto-Music (24-09-2013 15:09)

Reply by ClaudeBel

  • Avatar
  • ClaudeBel
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 31-03-2012
  • Posts: 9

Re: K1 sounds distant and too "metallic"

Well ...

I like very much the Pianoteq Blüthner virtual instrument. It sound very very well. But, frankly, I think that the reason of its popularity among Pianoteq users  (see this thread : http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?id=2533) is not mainly the quality of the modelling but the fact that this piano is much more compressed than other recent models (D1, for exemple). I didn't have the chance to try a real Blüthner, but I pretty sure that its dynamic range is not significantly less wide than others grand piano.

I have to confess that the K1 has never really impressed me (the Yamaha either).

But this is only a point of view among others... 

Claude B.

Reply by Philippe Guillaume

  • Avatar
  • Philippe Guillaume
  • Admin
  • Offline
  • Registered: 25-04-2007
  • Posts: 5,405

Re: K1 sounds distant and too "metallic"

delt wrote:

So i've been futzing around with the K1 sound recently, and i find it sounds kind of "distant" compared to say, the D1 or Blüthner using all the exact same parameters.

You can make it sound closer by reducing the reverb or modifying the mic settings. For example, in the "K1 Player" preset, the sound will get closer if you reduce the level of mics #3 and #4 in the mix table (those mics that are placed behind the player), you can try something like -15 dB.

Philippe Guillaume's Website

Reply by paolopiano

  • Avatar
  • paolopiano
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Genoa - Italy
  • Registered: 23-05-2011
  • Posts: 85

Re: K1 sounds distant and too "metallic"

Beto-Music wrote:

I would not call K1 such old, neither new.

I would say middle age.   


:-)


That's why K1 it's not in the same level of quality as the Bluthner.


The next grand piano model for pianoteq will certainly be better than any other we know.

waiting for the new model, I bought ivory II American concert D.
I must say that the sound is of a different category ....

Reply by delt

  • Avatar
  • delt
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Montréal, Canada
  • Registered: 11-06-2013
  • Posts: 401

Re: K1 sounds distant and too "metallic"

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

You can make it sound closer by reducing the reverb or modifying the mic settings. For example, in the "K1 Player" preset, the sound will get closer if you reduce the level of mics #3 and #4 in the mix table (those mics that are placed behind the player), you can try something like -15 dB.

Thanks for the tip! That helps quite a bit, at least through headphones

Incidentally (just curious) ...now that my ears are used to pianoteq, i find sampled pianos sound static and dull, except in the upper range, where a few of them are actually useable. Are you able to explain the reason for this?

http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit

Reply by Beto-Music

  • Avatar
  • Beto-Music
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 02-05-2007
  • Posts: 2,786

Re: K1 sounds distant and too "metallic"

Delt, metaphoricaly speaking, you were used to drink Orange juice from cans:


PunBB bbcode test



Anf now tasted something much closer to real fresh orange juice.


PunBB bbcode test


You ears get used to the full richness of the piano harmonics while playing pianoteq, and so you get a refinement similar to real pianists playing real grand pianos.  Now you know why people used to real grand pianos get a dislike for sampled pianos.


The upper range in sampled pianos sound less static because the resonances in this range, in a real piano, is not very pronunced compared to the upper range.
But if you pay attention more you will see that pianoteq recreates very well  the duplex scale ressonance of real grand pianos.

Last edited by Beto-Music (25-09-2013 14:13)

Reply by ClaudeBel

  • Avatar
  • ClaudeBel
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 31-03-2012
  • Posts: 9

Re: K1 sounds distant and too "metallic"

Hi

I'm not so sure that we can apply this metaphor so easily. I think that real orange juice is a real grand piano. Both sampled and modelled instruments are substitutes to real juice (with their own qualities and defaults). I think a better comparison might be bitmap images vs vector drawing, both are simplifications of a real object. Both are useful, both are approximate representations.

I play everyday on a good real grand piano.

Regards,

Claude B.

Reply by delt

  • Avatar
  • delt
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Montréal, Canada
  • Registered: 11-06-2013
  • Posts: 401

Re: K1 sounds distant and too "metallic"

...so, pianoteq is a vector drawing of a can of concentrated orange juice, with a bitmap on it? now i'm really confused... it says that nowhere on the site?? jk

ClaudeBel wrote:

I play everyday on a good real grand piano. ;)Claude B.

you're so lucky!! where, what brand piano?

Last edited by delt (25-09-2013 23:28)
http://soundcloud.com/delt01
Pianoteq 5 STD+blüthner, Renoise 3 • Roland FP-4F + M-Audio Keystation 88es
Intel i5@3.4GHz, 16GB • Linux Mint xfce 64bit

Reply by ClaudeBel

  • Avatar
  • ClaudeBel
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 31-03-2012
  • Posts: 9

Re: K1 sounds distant and too "metallic"

I think we can answer yes. At some level, Virtual instruments can use both approaches. For exemple, some good sampled base pianos use modelling for simulating strings resonance interactions. Pianoteq uses samples to simulate pedal noise.

Frankly, the brand of my piano is not very important here… Size: 6' 10".

Reply by Beto-Music

  • Avatar
  • Beto-Music
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 02-05-2007
  • Posts: 2,786

Re: K1 sounds distant and too "metallic"

Well...  pianoteq can control the acid level, content of vitamin-C, sweetness, watery and eletrolytes of the orange juice, or what brand of orange it uses.


;-)

Reply by duggadugdug

  • Avatar
  • duggadugdug
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: US
  • Registered: 05-09-2013
  • Posts: 42

Re: K1 sounds distant and too "metallic"

ClaudeBel wrote:

Pianoteq uses samples to simulate pedal noise.

They CHEATED on the pedal noise?!  Quelle tricherie!

Reply by Beto-Music

  • Avatar
  • Beto-Music
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 02-05-2007
  • Posts: 2,786

Re: K1 sounds distant and too "metallic"

No cheat, as the manual says that crearly.


Anyway... Does anybody can notice velocity change in the sampled noises?

Try to put the hammer noise in maximum and play the last trebble Keys gradually from p to FF.



duggadugdug wrote:
ClaudeBel wrote:

Pianoteq uses samples to simulate pedal noise.

They CHEATED on the pedal noise?!  Quelle tricherie!