Topic by dscoob

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Topic: Audio interface or USB DAC if I'm only using Pianoteq standalone

I am deciding between buying an audio interface or a USB DAC from the audiophile world.

I will be buying an iMac or Mac Pro when the new ones come out by the end of the year. I'll be using it for playing Pianoteq (standalone, not as a VST) with a Kawai MP6. I won't be recording at all or using a DAW. I'm using Dynaudio BM5A powered monitors. (I currently have a Windows PC with an M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 card, but I will be switching to Mac in the Fall.)

I am assuming that the sound quality from Pianoteq and all other audio from the Mac will be better if I use an audio interface or USB DAC rather than the Mac's audio out. But since I'm not doing any recording, I'm not sure whether to go with an audio interface or just a USB DAC like those that audiophiles buy to play music from their computers—like the Audioquest DragonFly, Audioengine, HRT Music Streamer, etc.

The interfaces I'm considering are the RME Babyface, Apogee Duet, Echo 2, Focusrite Scarlett 2i, etc. These are the onles in my price range that get a lot of mentions on Gearslutz and elsewhere. I'd like to spend under $500 but will go to $800 or so if it makes a big difference in sound quality. I'd like most of my money go to the quality of the DAC rather than to things I don't need, like MIC pre's and multiple in's and out's. I'm not sure if $500 or so spent on an interface will get me the same or better level of sound quality with Pianoteq as an audiophile DAC. I'm more inclined to go with an interface since I'm guessing that sound quality of pro gear is higher per dollar than the equivalent audiophile gear. But I don't want to pay for features in an interface that I'll never use. I really just need the DAC and an audio out.

Does having the drivers in an audio interface vs. just using a USB DAC make any difference if I'm not using a DAW, but just using Pianoteq? If in the future I might be using a DAW and virtual instruments make any difference in the decision? I will never be recording external instruments or voice—it will always be in the box. I'll might be playing around with VSTs like Omnisphere or orchestral sample libraries.

Thanks!

Reply by Luc Henrion

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Re: Audio interface or USB DAC if I'm only using Pianoteq standalone

in one word: latency. That's the most important thing to look at. I'm not sure audiophile DAC will give you small values like an USB audio card. And even if the sound might be just a few percents better (very hypothetical), too high a latency would ruin your playing experience.

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Reply by Ehudk

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Re: Audio interface or USB DAC if I'm only using Pianoteq standalone

If you don't to spend too much, go for NI Traktor audio 2. I have an m-audio audiophile 2496 on my pc. I bought the traktor 2 for my laptop, it sounds so much better than the m-audio. Huge difference.

Pianoteq 5 Standard (D4, K2, Blüthner, YC5)

Reply by dscoob

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Re: Audio interface or USB DAC if I'm only using Pianoteq standalone

Thanks for the replies. I'm curious what experience others have had with Pianoteq using a USB DAC like audiophiles use, rather than an audio interface. My Sweetwater rep said that latency is more a factor of the computer than the interface, so he was suggesting I get just a stand-alone DAC like a Cambridge Audio DacMagic http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/...7Aodp1IAqA

Reply by Ehudk

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Re: Audio interface or USB DAC if I'm only using Pianoteq standalone

You can connect an audiophile DAC to your M-audio 2496 coaxial S/PDIF output.

Pianoteq 5 Standard (D4, K2, Blüthner, YC5)

Reply by jcfelice88keys

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Re: Audio interface or USB DAC if I'm only using Pianoteq standalone

Hello All,

I have owned an Apogee Duet since it was first introduced in 2008.  It has performed flawlessly for me, and I am completely satisfied with its sound.  Please note that I believe Apogee Duets work only with Mac computers, not windows.


New Apogee Duets are available in a Version 2.  Highly recommended.

Joe

Reply by Luc Henrion

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Re: Audio interface or USB DAC if I'm only using Pianoteq standalone

Quote "My Sweetwater rep said that latency is more a factor of the computer than the interface".
Not sure at all he's right, in fact I'm quite sure he's wrong! I have several different interfaces (SSL/Soundscape, Tascam, Focusrite, MOTU and ESI), and 3 laptops. Believe me, latency can vary enormously, even on the same laptop. And if you look at the specs of the Cambridge Audio, they don't even specify any value for latency or even ASIO compatibility...! And, in a sense, it is normal: this  is a completely different kind of audio interface, it is designed first and foremost to play (pre-)recorded music, not to be used "live". My advice: try it before buy...

Last edited by Luc Henrion (24-07-2013 16:43)

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Reply by jef_citron

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Re: Audio interface or USB DAC if I'm only using Pianoteq standalone

I have a ESI Dr DAC nano
The driver ASIO is good (very good latency : 256 samples on a 7 years old computer without problem with a lot of VTSi)
The quality is very good with my headphone

If I want to listen to music with the DAC (using Microsoft audio) I connect it to the computer and it works perfectly
If i want to use the Asio driver, often I must connect and unconnect several times the DAC before the driver starts, it's really annonying
I didn't have this problem with my old audio interfaces

I think these DAC are rather designed to be used with Microsoft audio

I had a M-Audio, it's a really good interface
I think that the difference of quality is not so audible

Reply by custral

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Re: Audio interface or USB DAC if I'm only using Pianoteq standalone

jfelice88keys wrote:

I have owned an Apogee Duet since it was first introduced in 2008.  It has performed flawlessly for me, and I am completely satisfied with its sound.  Please note that I believe Apogee Duets work only with Mac computers, not windows.

New Apogee Duets are available in a Version 2.  Highly recommended.

I've just got a current MacBook Pro, with idea it'll let me gradually assemble (by bargains here and there) a fleet of the goods I  just can't have with  Windows. (Kind of a big dongle, specially right now when I'm as raw about MacIntosh as can be.) But since your post I've researched Apogee Duet and v2, got a handle on them, and it occurs to me your Pianoteq demos might have been produced via your Apogee, at least in part. Is it so, and what else went into the mixes?

I should say the spec now for USB 2 is a dealbreaker, since some post (this very forum) irefully warned about USB 2 versus 3 mixing, and my own experience has seen the warning borne out, there's trouble there; so I'll wait for an upgrade. But then it'll be very tempting. Probably irresistable.

Reply by jcfelice88keys

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Re: Audio interface or USB DAC if I'm only using Pianoteq standalone

custral wrote:

I've researched Apogee Duet and v2, got a handle on them, and it occurs to me your Pianoteq demos might have been produced via your Apogee, at least in part. Is it so, and what else went into the mixes?


Hello Mr. Custral,

Believe it or not, although my Apogee Duet is used for monitoring my mixes, my performances that are furnished to the Modartt website have NOT been processed through my Duet! 

Why not?  Although I monitor my performances via AKG 702 (studio version) headphones, I use either MOTU Digital Performer 7.24 or Apple Logic Pro 9.1.8 (32-bit mode) as a kind of pseudo tape recorder to capture my live performances.  These performances are captured in the digital domain, until such time that I render the audio to either .aif 24-bit, .wav 16-bit or .mp3 format.  In doing so, I avoid the Apogee Duet in the audio chain that gets eventually uploaded to the Modartt website.

Unless annotated to the contrary(*), all of my performances are the digital outputs that are converted to audio in the end user's audio system. 

(*) I have post processed some of my audio through a Waves L3 Multimaximizer, and/or Waves IR1 convolution reverb.  In those instances, the Modartt website annotates those performances as being post-processed.

Hopefully this addressed your questions to your satisfaction.

Cheers,

Joe

Reply by custral

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Re: Audio interface or USB DAC if I'm only using Pianoteq standalone

Well, reading that as carefully as I'm able, I sprung for Digital Performer 8; mostly because your recommendation by use comes on top of Surfwhammy's (of the NOTION forum), whose history and consequent insight into the failings of digital capture is so extensive I was only waiting for the Windows/Mac version to emerge, before becoming twitchy about the buy. Logic can wait - though it's another recommendation.

Thanks.

Current hesitation, which machine of 3, Windows and Mac, to install last (first will be first-deleted, in the misty future), to best take account of the 'courtesy' rules for registration-order. If only there were an option to choose which it's to be, at the time, there's be less of The Law of The Medes and Persians about this decision, now.

Reply by Temperament

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Re: Audio interface or USB DAC if I'm only using Pianoteq standalone

joe wrote:

I have post processed some of my audio through a Waves L3 Multimaximizer, and/or Waves IR1 convolution reverb.  In those instances, the Modartt website annotates those performances as being post-processed.
Joe

(I am a long time listener to Your performances, since Your OP 106 on EastWest.)
I made some observations over Pianoteq sound improvements: Pianoteq with KAWAIs GF - Sound Stage perpectives

I have got the best out of the CA65 in connection with Pianoteq (Blüthner Player and intimate, Bösendorfer, D4 Daily Praxis) when I mixed the sound from PT over the Genelec boxes and the CA65 Amp (MIDI local control set to OFF).

Improvements I applied:

   1. Not not to use Pianoteq standalone but Pianoteq VSTi from within DAW (Reaper) - a huge improvement, which I couldn't undertand why.  (With this I think now I might have been wrong)

   2. to avoid the use Pianoteq's internal processing and effects (reverb, delay) I am using Reapers AddIns ReaSurround; reaReverberate or ReaVerb instead, to much better results

  3. ASIO streaming rate set to 192kb. While not quite clear how this can lead to better sound (I am using Pianoteq Standard with 48kb internal processing), it is a significant improvemnt, sound is much more detailed and real (far from being an illusion.) The explanation is perhaps that my Audio Interface (EMU0404USB) cannot play lower than max resolution optimally or perhaps real differences between sampling rates are generally neglected. I shall have an answer soon, because I'll have to replace my AI.
...
4. Pianoteq output to a mix of powered near-field monitor boxes + DPs internal sound system: balanced outs of the sound card went to the monitor boxes, unbalanced pair to the CA65 line in.

Would You have any comment (experience, thoughts) to this?

Reply by ismails

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Re: Audio interface or USB DAC if I'm only using Pianoteq standalone

Great post.


dscoob wrote:

I am deciding between buying an audio interface or a USB DAC from the audiophile world.

I will be buying an iMac or Mac Pro when the new ones come out by the end of the year. I'll be using it for playing Pianoteq (standalone, not as a VST) with a Kawai MP6. I won't be recording at all or using a DAW. I'm using Dynaudio BM5A powered monitors. (I currently have a Windows PC with an M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 card, but I will be switching to Mac in the Fall.)

I am assuming that the sound quality from Pianoteq and all other audio from the Mac will be better if I use an audio interface or USB DAC rather than the Mac's audio out. But since I'm not doing any recording, I'm not sure whether to go with an audio interface or just a USB DAC like those that audiophiles buy to play music from their computers—like the Audioquest DragonFly, Audioengine, HRT Music Streamer, etc.

The interfaces I'm considering are the RME Babyface, Apogee Duet, Echo 2, Focusrite Scarlett 2i, etc. These are the onles in my price range that get a lot of mentions on Gearslutz and elsewhere. I'd like to spend under $500 but will go to $800 or so if it makes a big difference in sound quality. I'd like most of my money go to the quality of the DAC rather than to things I don't need, like MIC pre's and multiple in's and out's. I'm not sure if $500 or so spent on an interface will get me the same or better level of sound quality with Pianoteq as an audiophile DAC. I'm more inclined to go with an interface since I'm guessing that sound quality of pro gear is higher per dollar than the equivalent audiophile gear. But I don't want to pay for features in an interface that I'll never use. I really just need the DAC and an audio out.

Does having the drivers in an audio interface vs. just using a USB DAC make any difference if I'm not using a DAW, but just using Pianoteq? If in the future I might be using a DAW and virtual instruments make any difference in the decision? I will never be recording external instruments or voice—it will always be in the box. I'll might be playing around with VSTs like Omnisphere or orchestral sample libraries.

Thanks!