Topic by Tagirijus

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Topic: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

Hi there,


I am a Pianoteq 4 user. I hope I can post two questions here:

1.
With the D4: I played a bit with Pianoteq today and again I recognized that there is unfortunately a resonance frequency at around 596 Hz. Does anybody else recognized this?

2.
I compared the D4 and the K1. The D4 has a very huge sound mostly in the lower voices - but the K1 is very nice and clear but not that huge. Is there any possibility to combine the sounds or tweak the knobs (I already tweaked a lot, but found no good setting ...) to maybe let the D4 be much more transparent or the K1 much more warm and huge?

Maybe somebody has an idea on this?

By the way: nice product. Especially the CPU and RAM usage is incredible low according to the overall sound!


Bye,
Manu

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

Tagirijus wrote:

1.
With the D4: I played a bit with Pianoteq today and again I recognized that there is unfortunately a resonance frequency at around 596 Hz. Does anybody else recognized this?

Can you confirm this with only headphones? It might be your room...

Hard work and guts!

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

Compare the reverbs and the micing, too. You may want to adjust either or both. You may also want to try the D4 with the reverb turned off. 

But I'm curious about the results with headphones, too.

Dragon, a few nights ago, I was playing the D4 using a second keyboard, with my back to monitors, and I was still hearing the sound as though the right side of the keyboard was on my right. My monitors may be the problem--they are not close-field monitors, but instead smallish stage monitors, so some of the sound from each monitor was crossing the room behind my back. (A sneaky ploy). Still, I was surprised that there was so much right-hand sound in the left monitor, even when the Mics page showed that the left and right mics were set to O for the opposite outputs. Could you try this--what do you hear if you play some chords with your back to the monitors? (Besides some mis-hit chords?)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (16-02-2013 02:19)

Reply by etto

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

Jake, did you tried with 'Stereophonic' instead of 'Sound recording'?

Tagirijus, about question 2. not sure if it works because are very different models but try this: choose a D4 preset that you like, freeze all settings (the third icon from the left just before 'Random') and load a k1 preset. You can try the opposite too; in this way you change the model but retain all the parameters.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC4289A53FE3A4807

etto's Website

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

etto wrote:

Jake, did you tried with 'Stereophonic' instead of 'Sound recording'?


After posting, I tried playing some notes myself with my back turned to the monitors. I don't hear the bleed effect when standing that close to the keyboard. But about two or three feet out, using the second keyboard, the sound crosses the room. Maybe I need large coned near-field monitors, if there is such a thing.

But you're right. I don't hear it as much with Pianoteq's output set to stereo.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (17-02-2013 14:58)

Reply by Tagirijus

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

Hello everyone!

First of all: thank you all for the replies!

It seems that a big part really depends on my speakers! Via headphones the sound seems to be a bit less-resonant-sounding. I turned the speakers now a bit apart and changed my presets a bit.

Thanks etto for the "freeze" tip as well. It nearly works, hehe. Never tested this feature before.

bye,
Manu


Edit: Sorry, i forget: I always had "Sterophonic" set up. Now I tested "Stereo recording" ... this gives it unfortunatley a bit more resonance at some higher keys, but it sounds more brilliant!

Last edited by Tagirijus (17-02-2013 13:26)

Reply by sigasa

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

Tagirijus wrote:

Hi there,


I am a Pianoteq 4 user. I hope I can post two questions here:

1.
With the D4: I played a bit with Pianoteq today and again I recognized that there is unfortunately a resonance frequency at around 596 Hz. Does anybody else recognized this?

2.
I compared the D4 and the K1. The D4 has a very huge sound mostly in the lower voices - but the K1 is very nice and clear but not that huge. Is there any possibility to combine the sounds or tweak the knobs (I already tweaked a lot, but found no good setting ...) to maybe let the D4 be much more transparent or the K1 much more warm and huge?


Maybe somebody has an idea on this?

By the way: nice product. Especially the CPU and RAM usage is incredible low according to the overall sound!


Bye,
Manu

I believe I hear this also. Manu, is it most noticeable when playing note#G2 (3rd G from bass)?

It's just that, even when playing the neighbouring notes at the same velocity, the G stands out.
I hear a very strong 5th above (D).

Over the last few days I've been attempting to correct this in the spectrum page (PianoTEQ PRO), but to no avail.

I'd be interested to hear what others think also.

Kindest Regards,

Chris

Reply by Tagirijus

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

At least you could try to eliminate the resonance frequency with an EQ ... it's what I do most in this case.

Reply by sigasa

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

Thank you Tagirijus. Working on it. In fact, the frequency I'm decreasing is 588hz. It seems to be doing the trick, but I need to do some refining and cross-checking before I can confirm.

Kindest Regards,

Chris

Reply by ddascher

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

sigasa wrote:

In the spectrum profile pane I reduced 588Hz to -2dB

Well, I must be in kindergarten with regard to what you are describing here.

I brought up the Spectrum EDIT window but see nothing about 588 hz anywhere.

Could you "walk" me through this a bit as to what you did ?

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

Chis,

Did you mean to say that you opened the Equalizer pane and reduced the frequency there?
If so, what freqs did you set the two outer boundary points to? I tried your setting with a very narrow base to the inverted triangle and heard little or no effect, but widening it, I did notice the change.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (28-03-2013 17:07)

Reply by Gilles

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

If I understand Chris's previous posts correctly, he mentions hearing the annoying resonance mostly for note G2 a fifth higher, so a D. In fact the 3rd partial is an octave plus a fifth higher, so note D4 whose 1st partial (or fundamental) is 588Hz. So I guess he reduced that partial by 2dB to bring down the ringing fifth.

Funny this is all happening on preset D4, adding to the confusion...

Last edited by Gilles (28-03-2013 21:25)

Reply by sigasa

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

I must apologise for my previous post (now deleted).

It was a case of late night listening. Funny how one can be so sure of something sounding a certain way of an evening only to find next morning in the light of day that it was not so.

Again, I apologise for any confusion created.

As an aside, I intend to purchase the VPC1 (all being well). I would like to write a review when I have it.
It is now available in the UK.

Kindest Regards,

Chris

Reply by custral

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

"Well, I must be in kindergarten with regard to what you are describing here." (ddascher)

Me too. However I can say *what* is being done, if insightlessly.

Open the Note Edit window. Click thru to Spectrum Profile. On the mini-keyboard at bottom of Note Edit window, double-click the G above middle C. The legend "Note: G2(55)" will appear at top right.

Now position cursor in the 3rd vertical band. Description "3d 588 Hz" appears in the 'titlebar'. You'd guess that would be 3rd partial. And now you can draw down (or up) from the yellow line, within that band, a yellower modify-indicator, while a descriptor spells out what you've done in decibels.

Not at a keyboard, I hit various G's on PTQ's tinker-keyboard, staccato. Only resonation I get, thru headphones, is aG some octaves above, where the dampers are not.

ADDED: from sigasa's now-deleted post, he was trying for smooth-sounding scales, noticed a bump at G2 after all his pin-greasing, traced it to a peaky partial at the 5th above the G's proper note, and sought to eliminate it by hook or by crook. And then sleep fixed the um, raveled sleeve of care.

Anyway, showed me a bit more than I knew, so, profitable!

ACHTUNG ! For "double-click the G above middle C" read "G below" as Jake points out below.

Last edited by custral (29-03-2013 08:11)

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

Hi Custral and Chris

Do you mean to click on the G below middle G3?  That's the note that would have the legend reading G2 (55). You may want to check something else--if you did not isolate that G2 by clicking on each side of it, you will have reduced the third partial of all of the notes below it and the few notes above it until you reach C3. So the overall effect that you are hearing is not just the reduction of that one freq, but instead the reduction of the third partial in all of the affected notes.

I know. Working with the Spectrum profile can be confusing. I forget to isolate notes all of the time.

But I do like the sound that you get with this edit, particularly with the reverb off. How did you isolate the freq that you wanted to cut?

Last edited by Jake Johnson (29-03-2013 07:29)

Reply by custral

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Re: Grand K1 <-> Grand D4

I'll be! You are right. Slap thigh! Looking at the micro-keyboard, I misjudged my lengths. (Note to self, middle of 88 notes is the *crack* between E & F above middle C, so the 'middle C' I eyeballed was an octave too low. Always identify the crack - it's visibly half-way!)

And thanks too for the 'isolating' wrinkle. Progress!

MIGHT ADD : with G2 properly placed, things fall into place better. For one thing, taking bassest G as G0 (as PTQ has it), a countup to G2 did NOT give the G above middle C, and that was bugging me. And for another, adopting Gilles' suggestion the fundamental is 1st partial (description for 1st band is 196 Hz), while the third partial is an octave plus a fifth above (description for 3rd band is 588 hz = 196 + 196 + 196 Hzes), then all is now coherent.

Meantime, setting the 3rd band at +30dB, and striking (and holding) G2 finds most of the note-energy expressed at D4, 2 D's above middle C just as Gilles suggested. That's with Jake's isolation applied. Haven't tried it without.

Last edited by custral (29-03-2013 09:10)