New Controller from Pianoteq / Ivory / Kawai (Page 1 of 3)

i eagerly await more news ...

AWESOME!!! We seem to be seeing a long awaited response to our prayers for an authentic piano controller at last. It does appear that some companies are now at least 'beginning' to listen to the outcry from us pianists who wish for something better than what we've been spoon fed for the last 30 years!!!

Let's keep our eyes on NAMM!

Kindest Regards,

Chris

Is this the latest Kaway digital piano action (Grand Feel action) in a form of a MIDI controller ?

Or a real grand piano action, like used in real pianos of Kaway, with carbon fiber hammers ?

Given the size I doubth it have a real piano action system.  But the latest Kaway DP action (like CA-95), it's already very good to make a very nice MIDI controller.

Not sure the reason...
Kawai perhaps had the folowing phylosophy:  "If they want our great  DP action they need to buy our latest digital piano and not a lower cost MIDI keyboard with our DP action."

If they changed mind is because they found that selling a MIDI controller with their latest DP action will give more profit.

Here's what's really funny:

Kawai had planned a keyboard controller back in the late 80's or early 90's (I forget which), and I held out for several years as it kept getting delayed. My memory is hazy at this point, but it either never came out, or came out quite late and not with the promised keybed action and features, rendering it non-competitive vs. Fatar.

After that disappointment (whichever way it played out; the end result was about the same), I finally bought a Fatar controller (first of several). Then when Kawai came out with digital pianos many years later, I had mixed feelings because I didn't care for the sound.

So, now, finally, we have the famous Kawai action with the piano of our dreams (namely, Pianoteq).

Don't forget though that we'll need pedal inputs, and they need to be continuous or at least tri-state, not momentary. I haven't yet spotted a back panel picture or description of the new Kawai controller.

In sigasa's linked pic, the laptop shows what looks like PTQ's Velocity characteristic. Also, that laptop's positioned right where (in say Kawai's ES-7) the left speaker would be. So either it's sitting atop such a speaker, or this KB doesn't have any onboard (as the ES-7 does). The ES-7 also sports extensive sound samples to drive its speakers, so perhaps the sampling-effort's been ditched along with the speakers.

Which might explain where Ivory-plus-PTQ fits in the design here, as buy-magnets (a puzzle on the face of it).  These two could outperform Kawai's own sound-tech, at selling keyboards, so Kawai guesses?

It's a 'bet each way' in other words.

ADDED: the ES-7's not expensive (~$2K in distant Australia). Wonder what this costs, with the drum-roll buildup it's getting? What'd be nice additions are poly aftertouch (think clavichord), and much better repetition. I'd pay for them. You'd presume if the Ivory and PTQ are both obligatory bundles, or are separate options, the cost jacks up accordingly. But if the keyboard adapts to prior ownership without hitch (the ES-7 does USB MIDI already), then on that score price need not rise; and why else IS that laptop in the pic?

Hoping for ~$3K!

BTW, the single pedal boxed with the ES-7 is, as far as I can tell, perfectly continuous.

This does look very promising doesn't it. Mind you, Studiologic are about to release new products also (see their website http://www.studiologic-music.com/

It looks like we could be spoilt for choice??? Or are we looking at the same regurgitations of the past 30 years???

Eyes peeled everyone!!!

Kindest Regards,

Chris

I don't understand where Pianoteq and Ivory II fits in that controller...

If it's a controller it can't run pianoteq and Ivory. 
It would need a huge HD and fast processor to run Ivory II, or in othger words, it would require to be a digital piano computer.

Or...   Is this partnership just about disconts for Ivory clients and pianoteq clients ?

I was editing my post  and now saw your reply.

Thanks.   That make sense.

You know... this is something that many digital piano manufactures would fear.

If someone buy a excellent digital piano, after 6 years will probably buy another if have money and love inovations.
But supose someone buy a excelent dp CONTROLLER, WITH GREAT TOUCH FEELING RESPONSE, AND USE a VERY NATUTRAL piano software.   Why he would espent a lot of money again if he can just update the software for a fraction of that price?

It's probably to do with velocity presets. Like some other companies do i.e. Studiologic etc..

The new action, called Grand Feel,  is better, with longer pivolt point, very similar to a concert grand.

It's availabrle for expansive digital pianos like CA-95.

But why would they add the brand new Grand Feel action in a controller and lose clients that would buy the digital piano just for the new action ?

I bet this controller will use one of the two models bellow:

Very likely, Kawai MP series of digital pianos have this facility.

Spec, price and release date:

http://www.kraftmusic.com/kawai-vpc1-vi...oller.html

A nice image to explain the partnership result.

I bet people will ask a larger velocity curve display for pianoteq.

Yes, it is their residual RM3 stock of Keybeds they're using for this controller.

Worth consideration I think, especially if it marries with PianoTEQ out of the box!

The MP10 utilises the RM3. It's just that the new GF action is out now. It may or may no be residual.

I would have love the MP10, but the onboard sound would have been superfluous for me. Now I can save up for this!!!!

Kindest Regards,

Chris

http://youtu.be/DU3yQHQ01Uk

KRAFT MUSIC demo the VPC1 at NAMM

Anyway it have short pivolt point, like the RM3, and so inferior to the new Grand Feel action.

Probably intented this way to not move away costumers from the expansive models using the advanced GRand Feel.

Grand feel have long pivolt point in relation to the key, but in a whole it's not much longer, cause the other portion, other side of pivolt point have shorter position of hammer to pivolt point, compared to RM3.

Still a very good action for controller, a very good product !!!

One question:  Why even with a third sensor the controller is not able to have aftertouch ?

There seems to be some kind of conspiracy amoungst manufacturers to never produce a controller with polyphonic aftertouch ever again!

No, aftertouch (as its name implies) comes AFTER the... touch ! This type of sensor is not a "speed between two points" type, it's a pressure sensor, below the key, while the (2 or 3) other ones "just" compute the speed of the key, by measuring how much time it takes to come from the first to the following one. Completely different.

On question 1, maybe a need could be foreseen when Kawai invites (as they have), essentially ALL companies doing software pianos to join in. How can they know for sure what a particular aspirant might have, or lack? It's not just a question of Pianoteq, and reaches past the 3 others so far addressed.

Not sure quite what the thrust of the 2nd question is. If it builds from the thrust of question 1, answer would be Yes, in terms of the answer above. Otherwise, the 'curve' Pianoteq calls 'Normal' velocity provides a flat 127:127 input:output ratio of course, so it shouldn't need any help from Kawai.

Ah, but what if the Kawai stuff gets in the way? This question rears up alarmingly in the later pages of this thread from another board -

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthread.../2461435/1

- where a doubt about poor latency gets raised by a couple of visitors to NAMM who've actually played the model.
 
Kawai James, acting apparently outside US, queries a PR guy on-the-spot, and he replies saying that (according to James), to the effect that they've INCREASED the latency to defend against any 'crackles and pops'. Done the wrong thing, that is, but sensible in PR terms during public display with advertising consequences.

Still, let's hope the Kawai stuff doesn't get in the way. In the thread, question arises around page 5 or earlier. Round about there, Beto will delight in the big new pics of the Action.

Question also arises about the degree of curve to the KB's 'lid' let's call it. Will it provide a Stable Table for very expensive gear?

But that's a far lesser issue than possibly-fixless bad latency.

But Kawai, in pitching this product openly, cannot know exactly what they're opening themselves to. Therefore they get ready for what they certainly can expect, with what's been pointed out to them by Numa Nero is a very attractive feature - learning how a player plays. Oh, thinks Kawai. Right, we'll compete! We must.

They expect the NN feature to spread, to become core,..... only perhaps not. And so it's mandatory to include it, with that open invitation, and what they cannot know will or won't show up in future, that, is what will show up having, and what show up not having, this core feature, as they judge it to be.

Columns, sure. Cut and dried as bookkeeping - until in this area, with fingers hands and temperaments altering the case consumer by consumer and appealing to them or not in consequence of their direct experience (and dollars swing off the appeal), the columns suddenly turn up as consumer-appeal talking loudly - to accountants.

Cast your mind back to what the lucky few with hands on NN have had to say about this feature : how the thing sounds modifies the experience of how it feels. The feel doesn't change, but the experience of it does, via the sound. That's why flexed columns, to put it that way, matter. Have everything to do with this product.

Meantime, I keep worrying about latency. Kawai James suggests the latency the players at NAMM detected may have been exaggerated by the Kawai software not having 'the focus', which Windows gives priority to. Perhaps. The manual, when it's released will indicate more, maybe. But user experience will tell all.

Completely true. So this - semantics produces apparent gaps between persons not in any dispute whatever. The apparent gap's full of nothing. Or why does Pianoteq do flexing columns, itself?

hum... it could simply be that unlike Pianoteq, other softwares don't provide the ability to change the curve, and since the vpc1 is aimed at piano players only, this is an all important paramater. Nice that Kawai included it... mostly for the others ! :-)

it will not be in Newtons but in milliseconds (or less), remember: we are talking about "velocity sensitive" keyboards. It has been so since day one of the electronic keyboards... and, if you think about it, even since the advent of the pianoforte !!!