Topic by Beto-Music

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Topic: Piano and digital piano action, mechanisms again...

I would like to see images of the digital piano actions with scapment working. Like the action models, cut away, but a video of they working, or slow motion.

I once found one from a Kawai wood keys action, working and showinf the new scapement they added to it.  But I lost the link...  :-(
I never saw a diagram or video about the Roland scapment.


Have you noticed that the Rhodes action looks similar to Kawai action?


Rhodes: PunBB bbcode test

Rhodes diagram: PunBB bbcode test

Kawai:   PunBB bbcode test


Is the key response, feeling, better in the rhodes or in the Kawai action?

Reply by skip

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Re: Piano and digital piano action, mechanisms again...

As far as I know, even the best Kawai action still doesn't have a REAL escapement. "Escapement" means that the hammer detaches from the key, but that doesn't happen. (at least, not to the same extent as a real piano)  What some of the Kawai actions do have is a simulation of the slight "notch" (increase in resistance) that you feel on a real grand, if you play softly, that occurs near the bottom of the key travel. On a real grand, this feeling is due to the jack toe hitting the let-off button, which then drags the jack sideways away from the hammer knuckle. On the Kawai, this feeling is produced by a simple rubber flap. ;^)

Some of the newer Kawais also simulate DOUBLE escapement, which is the mechanism that allows a grand piano to repeat for relatively shallow key releases, and without damping the notes.  This is implemented with a third key sensor, placed above the bottom sensor but below the top (damping) sensor.

Greg.

Reply by skip

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Re: Piano and digital piano action, mechanisms again...

Also, as far as I can tell, the "escapement" on the Rhodes is very simple - the hammer simply bounces off the tine and then comes back down to rest on the end of the hammer. No let-off button and hinged jack.  So, if you press down on a Rhodes key very softly and gradually, the hammer will simply stay resting on the end of the key, and will never reach the tine.  On the Kawai action, it's simpler again - the hammer WILL come into contact with the hammer stop (which you can see at the top), no matter how softly you play. There is NO escapement whatsoever.
Note that I am not 100% sure of this though. I do know that this is how my very old Kawai MP9000 works, and I know that the action in this looks very similar to the new Kawai wooden actions, but it's possible they have indeed added some escapement. (I will be surprised though because if Kawai had added some real escapement, I think they would have made a song & dance about it)

I don't know which feels better out of the Rhodes and Kawai actions.

Greg.

Last edited by skip (02-01-2013 05:01)

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Piano and digital piano action, mechanisms again...

Thanks for the detailed input Greg.


Kawai action it's fine, but a bit lightweight. Do you think the fact of the hammer do not get released alone, after finish the strike job, changes the feeling close compared  to a real piano?
I felt it fine but like a bit of something was missing. I supose it's the "after strike" feeling.


The Kawai also increased the distance of the key to the pivolt point, and reduced the distance from the pivolt point to the hammer.
Escapement in digitalkeyboards it's more a trick to get the "clic feeling".

I would like to see Roland Escapment (also a tric to get "ckic") if it's similar to Kawai.


If anyone else have played in a good real Rhodes piano, I would like to ask how does it feel.  Better or worse than a very good digital piano? 
Does it feel very to a real piano a ction?

I supose it's possible to Rhodes to increase the distance from key to the pivolt point too.

Last edited by Beto-Music (02-01-2013 12:42)

Reply by skip

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Re: Piano and digital piano action, mechanisms again...

Beto-Music wrote:

Do you think the fact of the hammer do not get released alone, after finish the strike job, changes the feeling close compared  to a real piano?
I felt it fine but like a bit of something was missing. I supose it's the "after strike" feeling.

I haven't tried any recent wooden actions from Kawai, and moreoever, the only time I get to play real pianos is on the odd occasion that I try one in a shop, very briefly. So I can't really answer your question. If you don't get enough feedback in this forum, I think you would get a lot of help over in the Digital Pianos forum at http://www.pianoworld.com.  It's a good question - how important is that real escapement? I don't know.

I believe Roland's escapement feel (or "letoff feel") mechanism is very similar to Kawai's.

Btw, I have seen an add-on escapement kit for a Fatar action mentioned......

Greg.

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Piano and digital piano action, mechanisms again...

Modification to make bad Rhodes work better:


http://www.vintagevibe.com/p-290-fender...e-mod.aspx


But or I did not understand your post or this video is about a too old rhodes, cause i don't see the Rhodes hammer rest after the strike.

Reply by skip

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Re: Piano and digital piano action, mechanisms again...

I think the reason you don't see the hammer detach from the key and come back to rest is simply that he is playing very slowly. Also, even if it were played normally, it would be very rapid - the hammer would fly up and then bounce off the tine very rapidly indeed. Perhaps we'd need to capture it with a high speed video camera and then play it back in slow motion.......

Logically, it MUST detach (escape!), because otherwise the hammer would remain against the tine, preventing the tine from vibrating!   This is the thing that simply does not happen on my MP9000 - the hammer doesn't bounce off - it just gets shoved up against the padded hammer stop.

Greg.

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Piano and digital piano action, mechanisms again...

Greg, by the video, I can only see the hammer up, resting over the key as it's keep pressed. Strange...


Is the Rhodes action fast, able to handle the fastest piano repetion a pianist can do?

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Re: Piano and digital piano action, mechanisms again...

Beto-Music wrote:

Greg, by the video, I can only see the hammer up, resting over the key as it's keep pressed. Strange...

NOT strange. Please re-read my previous reply.


Is the Rhodes action fast, able to handle the fastest piano repetion a pianist can do?

I've heard pretty fast repeats, yes.  Have a listen at time 4:30 to Ramsey Lewis' version of "Living For The City": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55X-Qm1MF9c#t=4m30s  (should open at the correct time automatically)  I think I've heard faster than that though.  Whether it can handle the very fastest players I don't know.

Greg.

Last edited by skip (02-01-2013 21:00)

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Piano and digital piano action, mechanisms again...

That's really very fast...

If someone is faster enough than that to say the action do not handle, maybe should call Guinnes Book.


But many people use to say a given action is the fasted on marked, or a great around the market, even without try to push a fast repetion fast enough.