Topic by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,501

Topic: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

EDIT: This preset appears to use one of the many variations on what is now called a Victorian Well  temperament. Had no idea: I just copied the data from the turning record.

EDIT: It's getting better. There's a brief demo mp3, now, of the first revision. Sorry for the too early post of the first preset. Frazzled. Sorry if the demo file is a little low in amplitude--the mics are high:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...tuning.mp3

(EDIT, EDIT: There's a Second Revision and Third Revision in the Files area. The second sounds better for Glenn's piece. Not as good as for the Chopin. The third is an entirely new take on the same piano. More pure in the sense of fewer battered piano sounds. Not sure I like it as much as the second, in a way. See later in this thread.)

Very little done to this except the tuning, a quick micing, and reducing the length of the upper strings. This is otherwise the default M3 Close mic piano. (My sustain pedal is locked to cc 4. You may need to change it cc 64.)

The tuning gives it a big, resonant sound. Lots of sympathetic vibrations. (Try turning off the REVERB.) They're so strong, because of the new bass resonances, that I may have to reduce them from the default in the middle and low end. Far from perfect. But try playing it softly. Some nice sounds in there. But the sound gets crowded at high velocities.

So this is just a rough experiment to learn what happens with this tuning. I hope other people will use the Freeze window to load the tuning into other instruments and see if they can screw-up the sound, too. And correct the tuning, which was done partly by ear.

No mp3 as yet. I'm trying to learn to play it, but it scares me. 

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...opy%29.fxp

Last edited by Jake Johnson (16-01-2010 18:34)

Reply by sawtooth

  • Avatar
  • sawtooth
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 19-05-2008
  • Posts: 57

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

I'll download it and at least try to play something on the piano and see what happens.  I've only  got ptq standard so I can see the detune window on note edit but that's it besides the other standard parameters.

I do tend to play stuff with a lot of sustain as well as quiet notes so I'd be interested in making that part of pianoteq sound a bit better.

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,501

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

Thanks. Remember it's just the raw tuning, with few adjustments.

Reply by Glenn NK

  • Avatar
  • Glenn NK
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 09-10-2008
  • Posts: 1,008

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

Jake:

I must say, it's interesting, and I tried it compared to the stock M3 Recording, and it has some considerable promise.  To my ear, there is a wee bit too much detuning (or is that what you're striving for?).

I'll be watching this carefully.

Glenn

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,501

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

OK, I'm hearing it--the lower notes, particularly the C two octaves below middle C. Editing now, tuning up the tenths. I'll post another draft in a few minutes...

Edit: Here it is, along with my usual hasty audio file:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...opy%29.fxp

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...tuning.mp3

--Cleaned up the tuning a little. It's still more than a little ragged, but the original piano seems to have been a little ragged...
---Reduced the damper duration a little, which gets rid of some of the resonances.
---Increased the Dynamics, which reduces the amplitude of the resonances a little.

Better?

Last edited by Jake Johnson (20-12-2009 07:31)

Reply by Glenn NK

  • Avatar
  • Glenn NK
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 09-10-2008
  • Posts: 1,008

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

EDITED:

Hmmm, I think it's better.  Single notes are fine, but I played midi of mine of O Come Emmanuel with a fairly open voicing, and there's "something" there.  So it must be in the stretching.

I'm so accustomed to the M3 with its long decay so I boosted the overall impedance to 1.00 and found it more to my liking, but that's no doubt because of my long use of the M3.

Glenn

Last edited by Glenn NK (20-12-2009 08:03)
__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,501

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

Any possibility that you could render the song using the preset and post it, or post the midi? It would help in finding problems. (I've been trying to post a rendering of a piece that brings out the sound well, but it's six megs, and the site keeps timing out.)

Reply by Glenn NK

  • Avatar
  • Glenn NK
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 09-10-2008
  • Posts: 1,008

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

Jake Johnson wrote:

Any possibility that you could render the song using the preset and post it, or post the midi? It would help in finding problems. (I've been trying to post a rendering of a piece that brings out the sound well, but it's six megs, and the site keeps timing out.)

OK, but I'm not keen on showing off my lack of pianistic skills (particularly after listening to Joe's RIB).  Wow.

Two mp3's posted.

The chord at the end of the first phrase is where it's most noticeable - I'm not accustomed to this.


Glenn

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,501

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

Well, we were posting files at the same time. Here are two midi-rendered files of the first and last half of the Chopin Nocturne 27 using the Revised Steinway D tuning on the M3 piano:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...tuning.mp3

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...tuning.mp3

Part 2 shows off this preset much better.

(They have the impedance set for my default. Did you say that you changed yours to 1.0 globally?) They bring out the strengths and weaknesses of the tuning: I do hear what may sound odd, but I like the richness and at times brittleness of the melody. It sounds like an older piano that might not be up to concert standards, but has a tone of its own. Not sure I like some the midrange, but I'm not sure how much that has to do with the mic and lid set up.

That brittle melodic range, by the way, came largely from changing the pitch of three notes in the bass by a very few cents. It's amazing to me how much change in the overall timbre these small changes in the bass cause, completely altering the resonances in the midrange and treble.

I'm off to listen to your piece, now.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (21-12-2009 20:18)

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,501

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

Yes, I hear the out-of tune bass notes. It's the low D--A's mainly, isn't it?

I'll change the notes and check others around them. Embarrassing--these were the last notes that I did, and I no longer have an 88 note keyboard, so I must have rushed them and not checked them properly.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (20-12-2009 20:44)

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,501

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

Glenn:

Could you post the midi file for this? I could then replay it several times and adjust the notes while listening. I can adjust to pitch more, but I don't know this piece, and getting the notes right with just this harmony may be touchy.

Much faster than our going back forth with my edits, etc. Thanks if you can.

Reply by Glenn NK

  • Avatar
  • Glenn NK
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 09-10-2008
  • Posts: 1,008

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

Jake:

You have e-mail.

Glenn

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,501

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

By the way, the midi file for the Chopin Nocturne 27 was taken from:

http://www.gressus.se/chopin/midi/chopin.html

For reference, here's a link to a live performance of the same piece being played on a Steinway D. The sound differs, given the room, different mic settings, and a different attack, but the tuning sounds similar?

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.ph...631.0.html

Last edited by Jake Johnson (20-12-2009 22:43)

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,501

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

Here's the next, the Second revision:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...opy%29.fxp

Glenn--Could you render O Come, O Come Emmanuel using your midi file? This version was done largely with that piece in mind, and it has some good moments.

(Other people: The first rendering of the piece is with the previous version, which had what might be politely called troubles in the bass.)

Still struggling a bit with the bass, but it's getting better. The change in the bass changes the middle, too, articulating it more. Which means that in the Chopin, which I didn't render, it competes more with melody in the treble, and doesn't sound as good for that piece.  But it's certainly better in the bass and in the center for music with less emphasis on a melody up high.

I'm having to take another look at the entire tuning, really: earlier problem with the bass seems to have come from my lowering freqs that were already lowered in the PTeq stretch, but I thought I accounted for that. Apparently not. So I'm going with the Flat temperament now.

In any case, I'm learning just how complex these things get. Damn it.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (21-12-2009 02:11)

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,501

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

And finally a third and for now last version of this tuning. This is more "pure" without my early mistakes. I may actually prefer the old and beat up first and second revisions, which need more work. But for the tuning itself:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...%20Raw.fxp

The reason for the difference in the three presets: I made a beginner's mistake of not using the Flat temperament to turn off all default octave stretching. The first preset thus lowered the bass and raised the treble beyond the default stretching, even though I did calculate the stretch into the math. (I just forgot to turn it off, I think...) The next two corrections made changes just trying to get each note sounding better, with the default stretching still on. Then I saw the mistake, used the Flat temperament, and created the third "pure" preset. So I'll be quiet.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (21-12-2009 15:53)

Reply by Glenn NK

  • Avatar
  • Glenn NK
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 09-10-2008
  • Posts: 1,008

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

I'm listening to it right now (3rd edition).  It's good I think.

Glenn

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Reply by Glenn NK

  • Avatar
  • Glenn NK
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 09-10-2008
  • Posts: 1,008

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

Have uploaded mp3 of "O Come Emmanuel" using the third version of Jake Johnson's "M3 Third Close Mic Steinway D Stretch" fxp.

One rendering used the Dynamics slider at 87, the other at 60 (which I normally play with as the higher level doesn't work for me).

Glenn

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,501

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

I have to admit that, in the recordings you posted, I like the sound more with the Dynamics at 87--seems to have more dymanic range and depth of field.

But I may not be hearing what you hear when you play--I'm suddenly hearing problems with wave recordings (and it's in the wave, before the mp3 conversion). I posted a separate question about this.

Tried the Steinway M preset? (I didn't post an mp3 of it partly because the wave file ruined the sound.)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (21-12-2009 19:48)

Reply by Glenn NK

  • Avatar
  • Glenn NK
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 09-10-2008
  • Posts: 1,008

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

Will try the M today.

Glenn

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,501

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

Sorry to drag on about this, but I should mention that the name of the preset Third and Pure...only reflects that it was my third try at getting the tuning as close as I could to that of the tuning table--the name has nothing to do with Just thirds or fifths.

(Some people use the term "pure" to refer to Just tuning, which usually means just fifths. The tuning chart may contain some just thirds and fifths, and I did try to get tenth chords sounding decent, so the thirds should usually sound ok, and I did what I could with the octave fifths, but please don't let my hasty naming confuse.)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (22-12-2009 20:17)

Reply by JS

  • Avatar
  • JS
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 18-08-2009
  • Posts: 2

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

I`m using your first preset a lot. In fact I think it's the best of all.
It sounds very transparent, clear in the mids, powerful in the basses. I also welcome the detuning in it, that makes it sound real and organic. Good job, I wonder why there's not more feedback to this...

Reply by sigasa

  • Avatar
  • sigasa
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: UK
  • Registered: 09-01-2008
  • Posts: 2,014

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

Here's some more feedback! An attempt at detuning the M3 Close Mic. Its a simple linear detune, but there are, I think, some nice sounds? I have used the same Chopin Nocturne (no. 27) midi file as a refernce point (from the link you posted Jake).

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...Tuning.mp3

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...Tuning.fxp

Let me know what you think guys.

chris

Reply by Jake Johnson

  • Avatar
  • Jake Johnson
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Atlanta
  • Registered: 04-05-2007
  • Posts: 4,501

Re: FINAL (third pure) raw version of Steinway D tuning posted.

I'm still learning about tuning. The more I read, the more I see that there is to learn. There are several ways to tune notes to each other--different notes to use and different partials to match on each note. And even the definition of something like equal temperament is a subject of debate, since people both narrow or stretch the bearing or temperament--the initial octave that's tuned-- in varying ways and use different principles to stretch the octaves on each side.

I like what you're doing here, though. I do notice, like the other folks in the other thread, a few longish notes up near the top. That may be the reverb, in part?