Topic by feeble

  • Avatar
  • feeble
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Yankton, South Dakota USA
  • Registered: 21-12-2009
  • Posts: 40

Topic: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

A little background first.  I am a very new piano player (4 months of lessons) and have a Casio CDP-100 digital piano.  My teacher has a Kawai acoustic grand, not sure of the model.  Obviously there is a huge difference in sound between the two and I’m hoping to close that gap a bit.

Hooking my computer to my Casio, I have played around with Soundfonts  and am generally able to get better sound than the sounds built into my Casio.  However, like many of you here, I believe that modeled pianos (vs sampled) are the future of digital pianos.  Pianoteq is my leading contender for purchase.

I decided to component build a digital piano and have purchased a dedicated 88 key midi controller with much better action (but very limited features and options), studio monitor speakers and the components to build a very small Core 2 Duo computer that will be dedicated to this purpose.  I will be using this system with Windows 7 and once I have it configured, would like to run it headless, that is, without a monitor, keyboard and mouse.  At this point, I don't want to get too caught up in the technology and believe that having too many "knobs and buttons", especially for a beginner like myself, is a bad thing.  In other words, I want to just turn it on and play, just like I do now.

I can remote desktop into the computer to get Pianoteq started with my selected preset, but I would rather not do that.   My ideal situation would be load Pianoteq in the Windows startup folder and have it automatically load a specific preset or FXP and be "ready to play".   Like I said, I want to focus on continuing to learn to play.  Too many options distracts me like a chimp with a shiny object.  :-)

Is this doable with Pianoteq?  All the parts are coming this week and I'd appreciate the input any of you may have.

Thanks,

Shawn

Reply by EvilDragon

  • Avatar
  • EvilDragon
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Croatia
  • Registered: 27-06-2008
  • Posts: 3,994

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

A bit off topic, but there you go: I'd still suggest using nLited Windows XP, because they will run faster than anything, and you don't really need 64-bit for Pianoteq 3. Even 1 GB of RAM is enough - CPU is what matters far more!

Hard work and guts!

Reply by feeble

  • Avatar
  • feeble
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Yankton, South Dakota USA
  • Registered: 21-12-2009
  • Posts: 40

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

That is an option, I have an XP license I'm not using right now.

Thanks!

Reply by sigasa

  • Avatar
  • sigasa
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: UK
  • Registered: 09-01-2008
  • Posts: 2,014

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

Would you update us on the progress of your buid once you get the parts? It's very interesting to me as you are doing a similsr thing to what I am doing! (See thread 'modding P120 Stage Piano')

Reply by sigasa

  • Avatar
  • sigasa
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: UK
  • Registered: 09-01-2008
  • Posts: 2,014

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

Also. out of interest, which midi controller did you go for?

Reply by sigasa

  • Avatar
  • sigasa
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: UK
  • Registered: 09-01-2008
  • Posts: 2,014

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

This may give you some other ideas?

http://www.planbpianos.com/default.html

Reply by sigasa

  • Avatar
  • sigasa
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: UK
  • Registered: 09-01-2008
  • Posts: 2,014

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

Actually I'm not sure whether the NW-Stage action is graded hammer? On the websites spec section it just calls it a weighted keyboard! Maybe better to go for home build after all?

http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/stage_pianos

Last edited by sigasa (21-12-2009 18:59)

Reply by feeble

  • Avatar
  • feeble
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Yankton, South Dakota USA
  • Registered: 21-12-2009
  • Posts: 40

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

sigasa:  I took a look at your thread and what you are trying to accomplish is impressive.  For myself, I don't think I'm ready to go there, I need to learn to play FIRST.    The Plan B website is interesting, unfortunately, space limitations will keep me from moving everything into a grand piano case.  At this point, I don't really care what it looks like as long as the sound is good and the feel is closer to the grand I play at my teacher's house.

I'm on a pretty tight budget and from what I've read, the Studio Logic SL-990xp has a pretty good action for the price so that's what I bought.

The beauty doing it this way is that I can upgrade individual pieces as my budget allows and my skill level improves.

Reply by sigasa

  • Avatar
  • sigasa
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: UK
  • Registered: 09-01-2008
  • Posts: 2,014

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

A lot of people do like the studio logic SL990XP/PRO controllers. I hope you get on well with yours and enjoy learning on it.

Reply by tho

  • Avatar
  • tho
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 16-06-2009
  • Posts: 7

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

Feeble:  I also own a CDP100 and use it to control pianoteq.  Recently I have been thinking about getting something better.  However I am finding that I actually really like the action.  I  tested the MPK88 and it felt too light to me.  Pretty much the only action that I like better are the high end roland stage pianos like the RD700.  (I have not yet tried the high end yamaha pianos or the studiologic pro).  Most graded hammer action keyboards I try are too light.

Seeing how you are upgrading from the CDP100 I am curious to get your opinion of it.  How does the action compare to your teachers piano and the studiologic you are replacing it with? 

Thanks

Reply by olepro

  • Avatar
  • olepro
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Copenhagen, Denmark
  • Registered: 22-06-2007
  • Posts: 282

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

I think this is what you need.

http://www.smproaudio.com/produkte/v-ma...chine.html

olepro's Website

Reply by EvilDragon

  • Avatar
  • EvilDragon
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Croatia
  • Registered: 27-06-2008
  • Posts: 3,994

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

Except it can't run Pianoteq 3 with more than 3-4 notes of polyphony. CPU is way underpowered.

Last edited by EvilDragon (22-12-2009 12:51)
Hard work and guts!

Reply by feeble

  • Avatar
  • feeble
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Yankton, South Dakota USA
  • Registered: 21-12-2009
  • Posts: 40

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

tho wrote:

Seeing how you are upgrading from the CDP100 I am curious to get your opinion of it.  How does the action compare to your teachers piano and the studiologic you are replacing it with? 

Thanks


The Studiologic SL-990Xp was delivered yesterday along with most of the  computer components (but not enough it put it together).  I had a few minutes to play with it.

First impressions from the voice of INexperience:

1. It is heavy and feels built like a tank.
2. Action feels good, a little tight right now, hopefully it will loosen up a bit
3. The keys don't have the side to side movement that the Casio has, they are also quieter.

I would say it is an improvement.  Once it's broken in and I've gotten some time on it I can provide better insight.

By the time I sell my CDP100 on eBay,   I should get about 2/3rds of my money back.


EDIT: Correct typos

Last edited by feeble (22-12-2009 14:40)

Reply by olepro

  • Avatar
  • olepro
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Copenhagen, Denmark
  • Registered: 22-06-2007
  • Posts: 282

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

EvilDragon wrote:

Except it can't run Pianoteq 3 with more than 3-4 notes of polyphony. CPU is way underpowered.

Well then, this is not what he need

olepro's Website

Reply by davidka91

  • Avatar
  • davidka91
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 16-12-2009
  • Posts: 18

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

feeble wrote:
tho wrote:

Seeing how you are upgrading from the CDP100 I am curious to get your opinion of it.  How does the action compare to your teachers piano and the studiologic you are replacing it with? 

Thanks


The Studiologic SL-990Xp was delivered yesterday along with most of the  computer components (but not enough it put it together).  I had a few minutes to play with it.

First impressions from the voice of INexperience:

1. It is heavy and feels built like a tank.
2. Action feels good, a little tight right now, hopefully it will loosen up a bit
3. The keys don't have the side to side movement that the Casio has, they are also quieter.

I would say it is an improvement.  Once it's broken in and I've gotten some time on it I can provide better insight.

By the time I sell my CDP100 on eBay,   I should get about 2/3rds of my money back.


EDIT: Correct typos


The SL 990XP will never be broken. I have one. The action will gradually achieve a normal, semi-tight feel. (About 2-3 weeks)
The only faults are the somewhat hard action, and the funky black key velocities.
Compared to the 2 Försters I've been playing on, it feels heavier.

Reply by feeble

  • Avatar
  • feeble
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Yankton, South Dakota USA
  • Registered: 21-12-2009
  • Posts: 40

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

I'm very happy with the Studiologic so far.  The build and feel is much more substantial than the Casio, seems to be more touch sensitive as well, I seem to have more "steps" in between the loudest and softest passages.

I'm having trouble deciding on piano software though....  I still feel very much that Pianoteq is the future (My job is designing digital models in 3D, so I am definitely sold on the modeling concept), BUT, I wonder if, for someone like myself, the inexperienced player, it is the best choice for me.  There are a multitude of options in Pianoteq, some of which I don't have the experience to intelligently adjust for a sound that I am pleased with. Is the sound that I like due to my inexperience as a player and a listener and if I was more experienced, I would appreciate the Pianoteq sound more?  Out of the box, to my inexperienced ears, one of the other guys (TP) sounds better (price helps it sound better as well).  In Pianoteq, I tried several of the built in presets (m3 close mic in particular) and the Steinway FXP that one of the other forum members is working on and was not as happy with the results compared to the other program.    I've read that, in testing, people actually prefer the sound of MP3 over a high quality CD.  Same thing going on here? I do photo renders of the products that I design, they look nice, but they don't quite look real because they aren't "dirty" or "noisy",  they lack the subtle detail that tells the observer that this is a rendering, not a real object.

Is Pianoteq something that I would have to "grow" into?  I'm playing for my own pleasure / enrichment, I don't ever plan on getting paid for this (although it is a nice thought)

I'd appreciate any comments any of you may have.

Last edited by feeble (24-12-2009 07:02)

Reply by skip

  • Avatar
  • skip
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Sydney, Australia
  • Registered: 21-12-2007
  • Posts: 1,059

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

Since you're just starting out, the sound should not critical, but I suppose it's important to have a sound that makes you want to practise.  Art Vista, Garritan and Synthogy are some other suppliers I would consider (none of which I have though). I have a bunch of different ones, but I don't have anything which I can recommend over Pianoteq for someone in your situation.   

By the time you start to get good, I reckon Pianoteq will have improved sufficiently, in any case.

Greg.

Last edited by skip (24-12-2009 08:41)

Reply by Glenn NK

  • Avatar
  • Glenn NK
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 09-10-2008
  • Posts: 1,008

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

feeble wrote:

BUT, I wonder if, for someone like myself, the inexperienced player, it is the best choice for me.  There are a multitude of options in Pianoteq, some of which I don't have the experience to intelligently adjust for a sound that I am pleased with.

This is a concern (the complexity of Pianoteq).  I was worried about it during beta testing of the pro version.  There is a steep learning curve - knowing how the parameters relate to the physical features of an acoustic piano that affect the sound is essential, I think.  Fortunately, there are sources from which to learn and gain experience, and when learned do help immensely.  At first I simply used the presets (relying on the expertise of Modartt) and adjusted microphone and headphone placement - now I use other adjustments (impedance for example) to produce a sound that is more to my liking.  But the sound I like is not likely the sound you like - but that applies to concert grands too.

Is the sound that I like due to my inexperience as a player and a listener and if I was more experienced, I would appreciate the Pianoteq sound more?  Out of the box, to my inexperienced ears, one of the other guys (TP) sounds better (price helps it sound better as well).  In Pianoteq, I tried several of the built in presets (m3 close mic in particular) and the Steinway FXP that one of the other forum members is working on and was not as happy with the results compared to the other program.    I've read that, in testing, people actually prefer the sound of MP3 over a high quality CD.  Same thing going on here? I do photo renders of the products that I design, they look nice, but they don't quite look real because they aren't "dirty" or "noisy",  they lack the subtle detail that tells the observer that this is a rendering, not a real object.

Taste in sound is very subjective, and also a function of the the equipment used to reproduce it (often forgotten or neglected).  Saying that years of playing endowed me with better taste than you, would be nonsense.  Your taste in sound is as relevant as anyone's.

As a beginner, you may not appreciate the responsiveness of Pianoteq, but in time you will - it reacts very much like an acoustic piano - difficult to explain, but other pianists know what I mean.

Is Pianoteq something that I would have to "grow" into?  I'm playing for my own pleasure / enrichment, I don't ever plan on getting paid for this (although it is a nice thought).

Any piano sound has to be "grown into".  Faced with a new piano, a pianist must adjust his playing to the instrument, not vice versa - this takes time (better pianists adapt much quicker).  If you've been listening to Sample A for days or weeks, then Pianoteq will sound not quite right.  A few years ago I was able to audition three large grands - I knew that I loved the seven footer, but still it was uncomfortable - had I been given a few weeks with it, I would have adapted to it.

I'd appreciate any comments any of you may have.

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Reply by sigasa

  • Avatar
  • sigasa
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: UK
  • Registered: 09-01-2008
  • Posts: 2,014

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

My advice to you would be to check out every available option and download mp3 demos where possible and also any free trials so you can get a feel for what it sounds like when you play each one. Also when playing the various trial versions  you will be able to assess which software works best with your keyboard and setup. Check when playing each piece of software whether  or not you can achieve both very loud and very soft. Research thoroughly. Ask further advice on this forum and others. Your final decision should be based on what you most enjoy playing and listening to. I personally love pianoteq but, put simply, if you don't like it, don't buy it! You can always buy other software as you go. Finally, enjoy learning and if you love the software you finally choose, you will love to play it!

Reply by davidka91

  • Avatar
  • davidka91
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 16-12-2009
  • Posts: 18

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

Just get Pianoteq and enjoy. I'm a novice player too, and I researched months to find my piano software. I've eventually came to Pianoteq. First it was the specs, later it was the sound I got fond of.
Focus more on the playing, rather than just to get the 'perfect' piano. It will always have a room for improvement, so just sit back, enjoy what you've got, and practice. Consider updates and addons just as cool presents, surprises.
Unfortunately I can't afford Pianoteq, and even can't have my SL990XP in front of me as currently I'm at a dormitory with no room for my stuff. It sucks but I can't wait to assemble my piano again.
So, don't waste time and start playing your keys.
Cheers, David

Reply by feeble

  • Avatar
  • feeble
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Yankton, South Dakota USA
  • Registered: 21-12-2009
  • Posts: 40

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

davidka91 wrote:

Unfortunately I can't afford Pianoteq,

Ha!  I'm in the same boat, that's why I have time to try everything out while I gather the funds.

Reply by EvilDragon

  • Avatar
  • EvilDragon
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Croatia
  • Registered: 27-06-2008
  • Posts: 3,994

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

Come on people, saving up some money half a year and I'm sure you can get even the Pro version


Merry Xmas and all the best to all of you, good forum people!

Hard work and guts!

Reply by davidka91

  • Avatar
  • davidka91
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 16-12-2009
  • Posts: 18

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

Saving up from what?

Reply by feeble

  • Avatar
  • feeble
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Yankton, South Dakota USA
  • Registered: 21-12-2009
  • Posts: 40

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

I managed to scrape together the money and bought Pianoteq from a reseller, it should be here sometime this week.   I've placed the Pianoteq demo shortcut in my startup folder and it loads my chosen preset (slightly modified M3 Close Mic).

For the reference of others, my system is as follows (probably overkilled, but I have a little headroom for growth if need be)

Computer:
WinTEC 2GB DDR2 800 RAM
Intel E7500 2.93GHz Core 2 Duo CPU
32GB Patriot SSD
SILVERSTONE NT07-775 90mm low profile CPU HS/F (stock Intel HS/F wouldn't fit in the case
Intel DG41MJ mini ITX motherboard, 1 PCI slot
Rosewill RNX-N1 802.11n wireless USB
M-AUDIO Audiophile 2496 PCI soundcard using the M-Audio ASIO drivers
APEX MI-008 Mini ITX case w/ 250w PS

Software:
OS: nlited WinXP SP3
Remote Access: TightVNC

Speakers:
Behringer MS40 monitors

Controller:
Studiologic SL-990xp
M-AUDIO SP1 sustain pedal

Misc:
About 2/3rds of an On Stage WS8700 audio workstation
On Stage KT7800+ bench
Custom sheet music stand
Mighty Bright Duet2 LED light with magnetic base

Future plans:
Powered subwoofer, the Behringers are quite weak on the bottom end.
Maybe a portrait orientated LCD display for sheet music??

I'm running this system headless, without a monitor, keyboard, and mouse.  If I need to adjust anything, my primary PC is in the same room, I log in using VNC.  Am I correct in thinking that I can use some of the buttons on the SL-990xp to control features of Pianoteq?

This is what I get when I check the latency using the ASIO latency test utility.

http://www.spacmann.net/images/latency.gif

And a pic of the whole system.

http://www.spacmann.net/images/IMG_2393.jpg


Thanks for your help and advice everyone. It is fast and responsive with no perceptible latency when I play and Pianoteq sounds great (to my ears) and is a major improvement in every way over the Casio CDP-100 digital piano I was using. You sharing your experiences here has helped make it what it is.

EDIT: Fix typos

Last edited by feeble (17-01-2010 00:16)

Reply by nickfielibert

  • Avatar
  • nickfielibert
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 25-01-2008
  • Posts: 25

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

I've tried doing this on a headless PC, but shutting it down gives me problems. Re-starting the PC and auto-launching pianoteq it gives me the message it was properly shut down. It seems I have to close it first.
I'm using a M-Audio fasttrack pro (USB) audio interface. Alternatively I bought a 7" samsung mini display (USB) to put on my master keyboard (CME UF80) to still allow for some local control with a trackball mouse. Also, after a re-boot I sometimes can't load the M-Audio interface anymore.
Oh yes, I'm run XP pro. I shut the PC down with the front panel power button. It seems like it is properly shutting down (closing apps first) but apparently it isn't. Any ideas?

Reply by feeble

  • Avatar
  • feeble
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Yankton, South Dakota USA
  • Registered: 21-12-2009
  • Posts: 40

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

Just tried this on mine, while logged in via VNC, hit the power button once and it shut down properly. Hit the power button again to turn it on, it loaded XP and started Pianoteq and played fine.  I then logged in again via VNC.  No errors are shown.  Still using the PT demo because my purchased version hasn't arrived yet.  (Grrr)

Are you using an nLited XP?  Does the event log give any clue about what might be happening?

Reply by feeble

  • Avatar
  • feeble
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Yankton, South Dakota USA
  • Registered: 21-12-2009
  • Posts: 40

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

And I tried it again and had the Pianoteq crash dialog when it got booted up.

EDIT:  Nothing really showed up in my event log, but I wonder if this could occur when you shut the computer off and Pianoteq has unsaved changes to a preset.  Windows forces the shutdown and Pianoteq doesn't like that.  Just speculation on my part.

Last edited by feeble (21-01-2010 04:39)

Reply by skip

  • Avatar
  • skip
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Sydney, Australia
  • Registered: 21-12-2007
  • Posts: 1,059

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

It might be worth trying Hibernate or Suspend (if possible with your systems).  This doesn't work for me though - I tried a Hibernate with Pianoteq open, using a USB audio/MIDI interface, and it locked up during the resume.

Greg.

Reply by feeble

  • Avatar
  • feeble
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Yankton, South Dakota USA
  • Registered: 21-12-2009
  • Posts: 40

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

wOOt!  I'm a registered user now.  :-)

Reply by KindredSpirit

  • Avatar
  • KindredSpirit
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 24-06-2008
  • Posts: 14

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

I've been very happy with my 990 pro and found that the CME GPP-3 pedal unit compliments PianoTeq beautifully
http://www.cme-pro.com/products-list/product-gpp.html

Though be warned it is almost as heavy as the keyboard itself!!

Reply by feeble

  • Avatar
  • feeble
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Yankton, South Dakota USA
  • Registered: 21-12-2009
  • Posts: 40

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

KindredSpirit:  How long have you had your CME GPP-3?  Looks like a very interesting unit (just what I have been looking for) but there have been some problem reports.  How are you attaching it to your computer?  USB?

Reply by nickfielibert

  • Avatar
  • nickfielibert
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 25-01-2008
  • Posts: 25

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

Further to the issue of running pianoteq in a headless way, having it auto-start and shutdown with the on/of switch on the PC (that closes windows properly). Is there any feedback from pianoteq on this, or should I report a bug? In my mind it is a bug. At shutdown, PTQ should remember that state it is in when it is closed and not report that an error has occurred. Because of this I need a monitor and mouse to get it to work again after restart.
With this improvement, you can have a very small form-factor box. Alternatively it would be nice to have support for a mediacenter type of VCD dispaly, with the display of presets and specific setting, just like on a soundmodule. Wouldn't it be great if piano's like in this link would have a PTQ soundsource? www.digitalclassic.nl

Reply by feeble

  • Avatar
  • feeble
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Yankton, South Dakota USA
  • Registered: 21-12-2009
  • Posts: 40

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

Any chance you could use VNC (http://www.uvnc.com/) or Windows remote desktop to fix it on your headless piano PC?  This also allows me to change the presets when I want to.

Of course, it would still be nice to have Pianoteq start without the error message, even if it wasn't shutdown properly.

In use, the PC I built has a fairly low power draw, so I just leave it on all the time so that I don't have to wait for it to boot when I want to practice.

At some point I would like see a manufacturer build a very good quality keyboard with a small mini-ITX PC inside.  Now THAT wold be headless!

Last edited by feeble (05-02-2010 13:36)

Reply by julien

  • Avatar
  • julien
  • Admin
  • Offline
  • Registered: 19-04-2007
  • Posts: 1,026

Re: Component piano build and Pianoteq: Are they ready to play?

nickfielibert wrote:

At shutdown, PTQ should remember that state it is in when it is closed and not report that an error has occurred.

Hi Nick, the next pianoteq update should fix this issue (not closing cleanly when the pc is shutdown or the user session is closed). It will be available in two weeks.

julien's Website