Topic: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

I'm not sure if this could be implemented, but it would have a  straightforward benefit:

In the Note Edit panes, the ability to press a midi keyboard key to select a note for editing. If a single midi cc could also be routed to moving one of the vertical NE pane bars, we could do the following:

Open an NE pane, play a note, and move a single knob to change the setting for the note. Press another note to make changes there. (This would not work in the Spectrum profile NE, of course, since the vertical bars don't correspond to notes.) Then switch to another NE pane and continue, just using the midi keyboard and a single knob\slider\modwheel to do everything.

This arrangement would also eliminate any problems people had with clicking on the narrow bars and sometimes missing. No need to click.

We might still want more knobs on our keyboards to make large-scale edits on the main interface, but only one would be needed for the Note Edit panes.

Would the problem be the ability to assign a cc to one of the vertical bars in the NE pane? Is there a way to program things so that pressing a key made the CC control the bar associated with it?

Ideally, another pair of commands could also be attached to CC's--the Next and Previous NE pane commands. That way we could move from one NE pane to the next from the midi keyboard.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (21-11-2009 15:30)

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Very awesome idea! +1

(I meant on "play the note you wish to edit" idea.)

Last edited by EvilDragon (21-11-2009 17:12)
Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

The addition that I mention at the end would make this feature still stronger: it would let us cycle through all of the Note edit pages while focusing on the one note, without having to use the mouse.

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

During beta testing I had suggested the ability to make the on screen keyboard larger and movable.

I often click on the wrong key on the small keyboard.

Also would like a larger midi graphic (that could be undocked).

Glenn

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Hi Glenn.

Do you see that I'm speaking of selecting the note to edit with the physical midi keyboard? So we could: Play the note, and then move the mod wheel or a knob to move the vertical bar for that note up or down on the current Note Edit page.

The idea is to avoid having to use the mouse at all, so that the size issue goes away, and we both save a step (clicking) in editing and don't have to go back and forth between the mouse and the keyboard. Everything could be done with just the midi keyboard, its mod wheel or one knob, and ideally two buttons attached to cc's for the Previous and Next Note edit panes. (Or perhaps just to Page down and Page up, but then we would have to use the computer keyboard...)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (24-11-2009 17:36)

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

How about extending the same way of working (midi-select, it's often called) to the main interface? But in this case still using the mouse:

If we could also select a note to edit from the main interface by playing a key, there might be a way to edit just that note using all of the main interface sliders.This arrangement would let us make several quick changes on a note without having to open the NE pane for each parameter.

In other words:

1. Click on a button named Zone Edit, or something.
2. Play a note. This would select the note to edit.
3. Drag the sliders to make changes on just that note. (The changes would be reflected in the NE panes.)
4. Click again on Zone Edit to turn it off and to play or to make changes on all of the notes.

For more extensive edits and for making minute changes, we would use the NE panes. And ideally, be able to use a single knob\mod wheel to control all of the vertical bars, as in the original post.

(Not an original idea, of course: Many interfaces let you just select a note and then edit several parameters from one screen. The old Plugsounds had this arrangement, and most multisample players let you click on a note and then edit all of the parameters for just the samples assigned to that note from one screen.)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (09-12-2009 17:22)

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Jake, an idea: MIDDLE CLICK on a key on the virtual keyboard. The key that was pressed goes RED, indicating that now Pianoteq's interface is only modifying that note's parameters. All the parameters now move to reflect their value for that particular note, as in NE pane.

Consequently, all the faders and switches that DO NOT have their NE panes are slightly transparent and fixed, unable to move.

Another middle click on the same key releases individual panel note editing mode and brings back normal Pianoteq interface. Middle click on a different key makes THAT key red, and all parameters refresh their values according to the values in NE panes for THAT key.

It would be most welcome if there was a text indicator (preferably RED, so it's distinguishable) somewhere, so that the user knows he's now editing a single key instead of everything.

Makes sense?

I might post a mockup soon.

Last edited by EvilDragon (08-12-2009 19:32)
Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

I like it--the middle-click, the red or other color key. (Red might be too much, given the colors of the interface?) And I like the unavailable parameters, such as Octave stretching, going dim. And the red light. (Otherwise, I would get lost.)

I hate to think of what Philippe, Nic, and Julien think of all of this. They spend three years working on the interface and we want to mess around with it. (Notice that I said "we"--trying to spread the blame around a little, here.)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (08-12-2009 20:27)

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Yes, after middle mouse click, any key received over MIDI would select different note to edit, if needed (option in preferences could be nice to set up this behavior.)

Here are the (I hope amazing) mockups:

Normal editing
http://www.imagesforme.com/upload/d0aa61cb.png

Single note editing after middle click on a key
http://www.imagesforme.com/upload/e280e43a.png

Notice that the Strike point slider was SLIGHTLY moved in the second picture - it reflects the NE pane value, which is 1/8.3, whereas the default base value for this preset is 1/9.2!


No, I don't think THIS shade of red is too much contrast for this interface. It will blend just fine for electric pianos

Last edited by EvilDragon (08-12-2009 21:01)
Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

It does look amazing. Sweet. Would let us make several changes on one note much more easily. Good for roughing out a sound and trying combinations of parameters before digging into fine edits. And, yes, this shade of red fits the interface well.

Inevitably, the thought occurs: Shift+Middle-click would select a range of notes? But then the settings for each note wouldn't be visible if they originally differed?

And: Would a right-click be as good as a middle-click? Does everyone, including people on Macs, have a three button mouse?

Last edited by Jake Johnson (09-12-2009 04:10)

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Jake Johnson wrote:

Inevitably, the thought occurs: Shift+Middle-click would select a range of notes? But then the settings for each note wouldn't be visible if they originally differed?

Correct. My intention was that this mode would be for single note editing ONLY. Of course, all editing reflected in NE panes.

Jake Johnson wrote:

Would a right-click be as good as a middle-click? Does everyone, including people on Macs, have a three button mouse?

It might do just fine. I guess on Macs this would be Apple+click.

Jake Johnson wrote:

(Just a note: in the mock-up, the Dynamics slider should be grayed out, too, along with the EQ\Velocity pane?)

Forgot those, editing! EDIT: Edited, look above!


Gosh, I hope Modartt guys don't hate me for making such realistic mockups Although, I thing that making the inacessble controls would look better if they were "ghosted", meaning their transparency is around 50%.

Last edited by EvilDragon (08-12-2009 21:07)
Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Better and better. The gray looks good for the EQ\Vel pane. Now we just have to wait to see what Modartt thinks...

Last edited by Jake Johnson (09-12-2009 15:55)

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

I hope they are positive about this. I didn't waste my time in Photoshop for nothing, right?



















....right?

Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Hmmmm, that Photoshop image of nothing is very impressive!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Gilles, try these links:

Normal view - http://www.imagesforme.com/upload/d0aa61cb.png
Single note edit view - http://www.imagesforme.com/upload/e280e43a.png

Not my fault if your browser isn't showing these images. They are around 350 kb each, PNG files. They must work.

Last edited by EvilDragon (10-12-2009 22:48)
Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

(No, no--he meant your previous post, with the blank space between the two "rights.")

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Ahahaha. That one. Yeah, that space is there for reason.















Anticipation and building tension while reading!

Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Once more, I simply _must_ agree:  this concept (as realized by Mario) is actually a _very_ convenient _alternative_ to using the "Note Edit" windows.  If it _could_ be implemented without too much fuss, then I would _strongly_ advise doing so.  (I must be going for an underscore-usage record sometimes, but the emphasis _is_ necessary -- drat, they pop up _again_!  AHHHHH!!!  %^)

"Our developers, who art in Toulouse, hallowed be thy physical-models.
Thy version 4 come, thy new instruments be done, in the computer as it is in the wood!"

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

That looks like interesting ideas, we will keep them in mind.

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

dhalfen wrote:

(I must be going for an underscore-usage record sometimes, but the emphasis _is_ necessary -- drat, they pop up _again_!  AHHHHH!!!  %^)


Then just use underline tags?

Like this?

Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

EvilDragon wrote:

Then just use underline tags?

Like this? :D

Yeah, I know, I'm just lazy.  ;^)

"Our developers, who art in Toulouse, hallowed be thy physical-models.
Thy version 4 come, thy new instruments be done, in the computer as it is in the wood!"

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

dhalfen wrote:
EvilDragon wrote:

Then just use underline tags?

Like this?

Yeah, I know, I'm just lazy.  ;^)

Or just write in standard English notation?  LOL

But I must ask - why bother with the underscores at all?  All the emphasis tends to detract from the message.


Glenn

Last edited by Glenn NK (12-12-2009 01:53)
__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

guillaume wrote:

That looks like interesting ideas, we will keep them in mind.

I'm very glad you like it, Guillaume

Also don't forget about the Pianoteq logo and three meters idea: CPU, MIDI activity, polyphony. That one is really worth doing it

Unfortunately I lost that image along with PTQ3Pro beta-test forum... did you perhaps save it somewhere? ^_^'

Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Glenn NK wrote:

Or just write in standard English notation?  LOL

I would strenuously argue that no such "standard" exists -- especially in _this_ day & age!  ;^)

(The "ideal" always fluctuates.  Of course, language is ever-evolutionary, like any other form of communication, though you certainly won't see me using "I B w8n 4 u" or anything of that nature any time soon.  %^)

Glenn NK wrote:

But I must ask - why bother with the underscores at all?  All the emphasis tends to detract from the message.

Poh-tay-toh, poh-tah-toh.  One man's "baked" is another man's "au gratin."  I'll stick my head back in the sand now.

"Our developers, who art in Toulouse, hallowed be thy physical-models.
Thy version 4 come, thy new instruments be done, in the computer as it is in the wood!"

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Sheesh, they're already trying to change the interface around and I might not have even finished finding bugs in the current version!

Well, I'll still try to find as many left over bugs as I can access in the trial version.  I tend to mess around a bit when I get tired of trying to play with settings and usually spot incorrect things that way.

I've had a few intermittent issues that seem difficult to duplicate but I keep on trying (and I'll have to see if the same thing happens in the windows version too) but I won't bother reporting it until I can figure out what might be the issue.

So that's two slight interface issues I've sent in during the past week and one more if I can figure out a bit more of what might be happening.

I only have access to two note edit screens in the trial though so I can't do too much testing there.  The one thing I did notice is that the bold "display" of the current value is based on a mouse-over type even and if you scroll a control point off that window you lose the value being displayed there.  Not too big of a deal, I suppose.

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

We're not trying to change the interface. We're only adding a new possibility of working in Pianoteq. This one seems more immediate for single-note editing rather than scrolling through 22 note edit panes, don't you think?

Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

About the only thing that some people might like a bit more is to actually see numbers instead of sliders when going note by note to more easily see how the values change rather than having to right click everywhere.

Oh great...there I go suggesting interface changes.

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

sawtooth wrote:

Oh great...there I go suggesting interface changes. ;)

Yeah, it's a vicious cycle.

Truthfully, I'd be happy with numeric-value displays instead of sliders, too, but as I also mess around with a lot of soft-synths, I've grown quite accustomed to the whole sliders-knobs-wheels-strips environment (which makes more sense with actual hardware, anyway, except in certain fine-tuning cases where number entry would _always_ be easier).  MODARTT approaches the Pianoteq interface with a "user-friendly" approach (i.e., graphical feedback), and _most_ potential users in the world just wouldn't be as comfortable as myself with a strictly-numeric interface.

:-)

"Our developers, who art in Toulouse, hallowed be thy physical-models.
Thy version 4 come, thy new instruments be done, in the computer as it is in the wood!"

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

The sliders might have numeric readouts to their right or left that gave their settings.

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Jake Johnson wrote:

The sliders might have numeric readouts to their right or left that gave their settings.

Seconded.  Having just a numeric value, mandating use of the keyboard, could be tedious.

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

NeilCraig wrote:
Jake Johnson wrote:

The sliders might have numeric readouts to their right or left that gave their settings.

Seconded.  Having just a numeric value, mandating use of the keyboard, could be tedious.

Thirded.  (With an interface "growth spurt" option. ;^)

The keyboard use wouldn't _have_ to be mandatory -- you could still click on the number box and treat it like a knob/slider via MIDI learn.  But the "visual feedback" would disappear, and I don't think anyone wants that.

This slider/number scenario would be a good compromise, but the interface would require a sudden growth spurt.  (Or the sliders would have to atrophy.) 

So, to summarize:

(A) Select individual note on keyboard and have interface values change _only_ for that note (with corresponding changes made in "Note Edit" land).  See Mario's example!

(B) Add numeric readouts to side of each slider, thus negating the need for right-clicking to input a value.  (Heck, we could even _tab_ between the boxes, forward and shift-tab backward.!)

"Our developers, who art in Toulouse, hallowed be thy physical-models.
Thy version 4 come, thy new instruments be done, in the computer as it is in the wood!"

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

I disagree with a numeric readout beside each slider.

It's much better to have one centralised numeric readout which would tell the name of the parameter which is being changed, and the numeric value below. Ideal placement for such readout would be somewhere above the volume meter and output selection.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

EvilDragon wrote:

I disagree with a numeric readout beside each slider.

It's much better to have one centralised numeric readout which would tell the name of the parameter which is being changed, and the numeric value below. Ideal placement for such readout would be somewhere above the volume meter and output selection.

But I think that the idea is to be able to see all of the settings at once, instead of just the one that the user is currently changing.

You're worried, however, about cluttering the interface with numbers? It's a problem. How about a separate pane that opens, and could be detached, showing just a list of the parameters and their settings, something like the basic list of parameter settings that many sequencers have for vsti's to show the instrument without the interface, but with better design--something like the Presets list? Cantablile and Reaper have a basic list like this. The one problem is that the list of settings is so long that you have to scroll down it to find things, which goes against the entire idea of being able to see everything at once...

Last edited by Jake Johnson (16-12-2009 14:16)

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Jake Johnson wrote:

How about a separate pane that opens, and could be detached, showing just a list of the parameters and their current settings...

Oooo, another detachable window -- I like it!!!

I'd opt for a numeric-readout alternate version of the current interface -- just _those_ items!  (The note-edit stuff could still be isolated to the note-edit windows and/or single-select-key [not-yet-implemented] option.)  In fact, you could shrink this window, because it wouldn't require the slider space!

This option would make perfect sense:  the main interface would remain unchanged, but we (or, more precisely, lunatics such as myself) could still see our blessed numbers without having to right-click all over the place (and then keep those numbers in mind once they vanish).

I _don't_ really like the idea of a "centralized" readout, because I would always want to see _more_ than just a single value, especially when I'm working on multiple parameters simultaneously (which is often the case).

"Our developers, who art in Toulouse, hallowed be thy physical-models.
Thy version 4 come, thy new instruments be done, in the computer as it is in the wood!"

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

And in Note edit mode (after middle-clicking per EvilDragon), when the user pressed a note, turning it red, this list would reflect all of the settings for the one note? And maybe let the user copy all of the settings to another note? Perhaps there would be a check box next to each parameter in the list: Copy checked parameter settings. Press another note. Paste parameter settings.

Middle-click again, turning off Note edit mode, and the list reflects the general settings for the preset.

Forgive us, Philippe, Niclas, and Julien...

Last edited by Jake Johnson (16-12-2009 18:11)

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Now, now, Jake, that's a tiny bit too much, don't you think

I'd be perfectly happy with this behavior:

1. middle(or right)-click: enter note-edit note, refresh the UI with all the parameter values for that note

2. Ctrl+middle(or right)-click on the current red key, hold and drag-drop to another key: copies all parameter values to that another key, activates that key in note edit mode (red).

3. Alt+middle(or right)-click, following the procedure as in 2. above: copies all parameter values that are NOT frozen, everything else as above.

Makes more sense?

Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Well...I like the drag and drop part.

Not sure I like having to use the Ctl and Alt keys. My thought was to make it possible with just a mouse on the midi keyboard, cutting out the need for a computer keyboard...

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

You have to think of Mac users - they only have one button on their mouse They're bound to use Cmd and Apple keys for this.

Last edited by EvilDragon (16-12-2009 20:16)
Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

I think the newer Macs have usb ports, so they can use any mouse, now. (I'd forgotten this earlier...)

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Hm, good point.

In that case:

1. middle-click: enter note-edit note, refresh the UI with all the parameter values for that note.

2. left-click on the current red key, hold and drag-drop to another key: copies all parameter values to that another key, activates that key in note edit mode (red).

3. right-click, following the procedure as in 2. above: copies all parameter values that are NOT frozen, everything else as above.

Last edited by EvilDragon (16-12-2009 21:43)
Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Freeze parameters for each note? Julien will shoot us. Or do you just mean using the current Freeze thing to keep some elements of the preset stable? That would be good. That would be very good.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (16-12-2009 21:38)

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Jake Johnson wrote:

Or do you just mean using the current Freeze thing to keep some elements of the preset stable?

This.

Whatever is checked on the Freeze page, those parameters wouldn't get copied to another key.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

EvilDragon wrote:

You have to think of Mac users - they only have one button on their mouse ;) They're bound to use Cmd and Apple keys for this.

Hey, just FYI, I've used a Kensington Orbit Optical Trackball since about 2002 or so -- I absolutely can't _stand_ mice, especially ANY of the ones invented by Apple (and the more recent models are all right-clickable [or pressable], you must realize!). 

Oddly enough, I'm the one who shows all the "PC users" (who, clearly, should never be confused with PC experts) at work when/where they should be right-clicking in their various programs. 

:-)

"Our developers, who art in Toulouse, hallowed be thy physical-models.
Thy version 4 come, thy new instruments be done, in the computer as it is in the wood!"

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Jake Johnson wrote:

Forgive us, Philippe, Niclas, and Julien...

When brains run wild!!!

;^)

"Our developers, who art in Toulouse, hallowed be thy physical-models.
Thy version 4 come, thy new instruments be done, in the computer as it is in the wood!"

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Damn. Trackballs are oddballs to me.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Hey, you _know_ I'm an oddball, so big surprise there.  ;^)

"Our developers, who art in Toulouse, hallowed be thy physical-models.
Thy version 4 come, thy new instruments be done, in the computer as it is in the wood!"

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Off topic feature request: Please, make some really old cranked pianos. (Or just  an easy way to make the sound more worn-out and faulty)
Somehow I'm fascinated by the pulverized pianos' sound I can find at old schools and basements

EDIT: Also, how are the uprights developing?

Last edited by davidka91 (17-12-2009 11:17)

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

EvilDragon wrote:
Jake Johnson wrote:

Or do you just mean using the current Freeze thing to keep some elements of the preset stable?

This.

Whatever is checked on the Freeze page, those parameters wouldn't get copied to another key.

One addition: I think we would need to be able keep the Freeze page open while we edit and play to make this arrangement work well. (Now, if we open the Freeze page, we can't do anything else.) Otherwise, the user would have to memorize which parameters were frozen, or go out of Edit mode, open the Freeze page to see what was locked or to lock things, close the Freeze page, middle click to go back into Note edit mode...

Re: Feature request for Pro edition: select note for editing by playing it

Jake Johnson wrote:

One addition: I think we would need to be able keep the Freeze page open while we edit and play to make this arrangement work well.

Yay!  Finally, someone else who wants to make the "Freeze Parameters" window detachable, just like so many of the other windows.  Please please please!

(Seriously, I can recall the various dynasties of Egyptian pharaohs and Chinese emperors with startling accuracy, but I have serious difficulty remembering that I froze the action settings!)

%^)

"Our developers, who art in Toulouse, hallowed be thy physical-models.
Thy version 4 come, thy new instruments be done, in the computer as it is in the wood!"