When listening to most sample libraries, recordings of real piano's and playing on a standard piano most of the time gives us a reasonably wide stereo image with bass from the left and highs from the right.
I have never gotten this from Pianoteq.
Is there something I do wrong or can this not be achieved from Pianoteq?
If it is in there, is there a way to 'widen' the stereo image?
cheers
Hans
Did you check the levels on the Mics page? Several arrangements there, but if you have stereo mics set up, you can reduce the left channel volume for the right mic and the right channel volume on the left mic.
With Bianaural presets, increasing the head size seems to increase the stereo pan. But it also changes the sound of each note because of the increased filtering.
And\or you can add mics to each side and keep each one only on one channel.
(Strange that you posted this, really. I've been thinking about requesting a way to narrow the stereo image.)
Hey Jake
sorry - but working with the two mics - one at each end of the piano - doesn't really give me the wide spread stereo sound I am after....
I would expect that when I drag over the keys from low to high, the sound would also give a more obvious change from left to right - low notes being on the left, highs on the right...
binaural seems to give a bit more of this effect but still less than I would expect...
Do you have each mic set to only one channel?
Do you have each mic set to only one channel?
yep - have done that but no real obvious stereo effect here..
Maybe it's because of the realistic soundboard: notes at both ends resonate the entire soundboard, so both mics pick up treble and bass?
So we're wanting artifice.
a it's quite possible - as I already said.. listening to records I do hear that more obvious stereo image, but have missed it all that time in Pianoteq...
Maybe if the mics would have some more falloff (maybe even adjustable) this could be emulated..
I don't know what to say. PianoTeq is so good that I feel guilty asking for small changes.
I thought of posting a request for a way to narrow the stereo field after listening to the recordings at those two sites I linked to for reference sounds. The soundstage for the piano is narrow in most of them. (Just speaking about that aspect of the sounds. I'm very aware of their other weaknesses and strengths.) Sometimes too narrow, so that there's a feeling of a frontal assault. I didn't, and don't, want the more narrow panning to be the default, but I'd like to control the stereo width.
But that opens the door for other recording controls, like compression and saturation and mic types? It argues against the model?
creart:
Can I ask you to listen for something else, too, if you listen to either the piece named Dream Dance or the piece named Exploring? Does the sound of each note seem to spread a little horizontally over time? So that the partials evolve over the stereo field, instead of in the same narrow space as the attack??
creart, did you try the C3 solo recording variant 1 and 2? They have a slightly broader stereo image. There is a limitation that comes from the fact that the sound spreads through the whole soundboard, so the localization is only partial. Apart the volume mentioned by Jake, you can also adjust the delay for each mic.
Hi Philippe,
yes I've tried the variants as well - it's not what I would expect really...
so the only way would trying to use 2 instances in Logic, place either of them in opposite sides and place eq's on both of them and see if that works....
One point of criticism if I may is that often people have to look for solutions by using multiple instances for sounds that one would expect to get 'out of the box' - I have seen threads with discussions on using multiple instances a lot - this is the first time I find something like that myself though...
And don't get me wrong - I love Pianoteq, it's sound (still room for improvement but great nonetheless!), playability and editabilty!
Do the microphone actually have a 'real' fall-off??
Would it be possible to add filtering on separate mics?
Jake - I do hear some shifting - wondering if it's a real recording or if there are some added effects there...
cheers
Hans
Hans, don't you think that what you're asking for is not at all a realistic piano image? I don't know of any classical or jazz piano recording where the lows are on one side and the highs on the other... True, some highs are more proeminent on one side (attacks noticeably) but the lows are not "directional" at all...
I think you're asking for some kind of low-cost "sampled" piano effect! Don't get me wrong, I'm just amazed about your question...
Hans, don't you think that what you're asking for is not at all a realistic piano image? I don't know of any classical or jazz piano recording where the lows are on one side and the highs on the other... True, some highs are more proeminent on one side (attacks noticeably) but the lows are not "directional" at all...
I think you're asking for some kind of low-cost "sampled" piano effect! Don't get me wrong, I'm just amazed about your question...
Piano recordings can be very misleading from which to judge stereo separation, as they are highly processed after recording. By using two microphones (most piano recording uses two), and during processing apply filtering to each channel (hi-pass and low-pass filters), one can create the effect of stereo separation of bass from treble. I can do this with my wave editor on my computer.
My piano restorer friend and I tested out the "stereo" separation of sound from a grand piano a few weeks ago. We took turns striking various single notes while the other moved around trying to discern what part of the soundboard the sound came from - there was virtually no separation between bass and treble (don't rely on string placement as the strings account for a very small fraction of the overall volume from a piano - and besides, the bass and treble strings cross each other).
We both agreed that the perceived separation between bass and treble (left to right), it is largely an illusion. As pianists, we strike an octave with our left hand in the deep bass, and get the perception that the sound is coming from where we played the notes.
I've been playing for 63 years, and I always believed there was a definite and pronounced stereo separation - until we tried to find it - the result was a bit of a surprise.
Glenn
Hi Philippe,
[...]
Do the microphone actually have a 'real' fall-off??
Would it be possible to add filtering on separate mics?cheers
Hans
Hans, our mics are "perfect" omni mics, in the sense that they measure the exact acoustic pressure. The funny thing in the virtual world is that it just goes the opposite way to the real world: in the latter, it is extremely difficult to construct a perfect mic, whereas in the virtual world it is the easiest: you just need to pick the value of the acoustic pressure field without more processing.
Concerning adding filters, we are here (as often) on the boarder line between the things that should be added to Pianoteq or not. But maybe this is something that can be chained after Pianoteq from its output?
@Philippe - yes I understand - the question or suggestion is in the same league as adding the whoosh or piano lid or wood termites for that matter...
And it's up to you how far you will go - the problem ofcourse for you is that the better the sound is going to get, the more 'us users' expect to get in terms of realism....
And speaking of realism, Luc obviously has a point on bass sound that can hardly be heard directional, only from a certain frequency we can 'place it' - that's the principal for Bose speaker systems with one woofer and two mid- and high range speakers.
And it might well be the case that it is just a psychological thing as Glenn suggests where we (or at least I) expect the higher or lower sounds to come from the point where I play it...
Further I might be mislead by the type of music I listen to - not much 'real' classical or jazz piano work in my cd library.. quite possible that the pianoparts on the cd's I listen to are coming from sample libraries which have led me to think that the stereo image should be wider than I know from Pianoteq.
Still I think in that case it is a legitimate question, since one asks for things he is accustomed to hear - as with key whooshes and such...
Actually I do miss some 'atmosphere' in the sound of Pianoteq sometimes and I think the question for the wider stereo image also arose from that... the feeling that something .. an x-factor... is still missing...
And sure that's the problem with a virtual world being far too perfect.
As an example I have been working on a 'classical' composition where I use an orchestral sample library that sounded to clean to me so I added an extra layer underneath with 'hall-noise' and audience-sounds like coughs etc. We expect to hear the imperfections and when the sound is too clean we do miss those imperfections without often being able to place what exactly is 'wrong' with the sound...
And I know what the final answer to anything like this should be.. not satisfied enough with Pianoteq or a sample library?? Get yourself a grand piano!
ok... now I'll stop - still a lot to say but the message is getting loooong.. sorry
cheers
Hans
Further to the stereo separation aspect of piano sound - I think that we've been conditioned to expect this. And as I said, creating this is very simple with a wave editor. I could in fact put the bass sounds on the right and the treble on the left if I wished, but even though I know there is little if any separation, it would sound strange to me. So I go along with the flow.
Glenn
When listening to most sample libraries, recordings of real piano's and playing on a standard piano most of the time gives us a reasonably wide stereo image with bass from the left and highs from the right.
I guess the question is "Who is the audience?" Should a digital piano produce the sound as heard by the person playing it or from the sixth row of a concert hall?
If I were working in a recording studio and wanted to use piano samples in a mix I'd not want the sound as heard by the player. But if I were practicing on a keyboard I'd want the sound with the bass (mostly) on the left
If I were working in a recording studio and wanted to use piano samples in a mix I'd not want the sound as heard by the player. But if I were practicing on a keyboard I'd want the sound with the bass (mostly) on the left
That's one of the nice things about midi We can record the note information while listening to a player perspective then, when we finalize the audio, change it to a listener perspective or whatever we like. Assuming the software has that flexibilty- which pianoteq does.
Creart:
I accidentally found a way of setting up the mics that does what you want. I think. Try the lid and mic arrangement in this image. (Note the settings in BOTH the Top view and Front view:)
Try extreme settings, on past the piano or very close to the other mic. Closer to the sound you wanted? A new control, at least?
I'm of course cheating, in a sense--The mics are picking up their ends of the lid, where the sound is more isolated than inside the lid, with the sound from all over the soundboard coming up and surrounding them.
Worth playing with, along with this basic setting:
--Changing the distance of both mics from the lid a bit. Moving them away a little increases the volume, for the sound has more space in which to develop. Putting them inside the lid, but still up against it, doesn't immediately destroy the stronger sense of width, so long as they are close to the lid.
--The Sound speed parameter has a big effect. At its lowest setting, it seems to keep the bass isolated as the note evolves, and a little brassier. Moving it to the right increases the degree to which the bass evolves towards the center and becomes less metallic, almost as if it's controlling the spread of the notes across the soundboard as well as the air. But only almost--even with this slider moved to the far right, the bass notes stay left of center. So...moving the mics closer together and working with this SS parameter gives one a lot of control over just how much the sound spreads to the center.
Anyway, I like the way this accidental mic\lid setup isolates\separates each note in the center a little more, even if the mics are moved closer together.
cool Jake
I'll have a go with that!
thanks for trying!!!
cheers
Hans