Topic: Morphing piano.

Just one more suggestion to the collection:

Pianoteq offer several features and adjust possibilities not found in any other piano software or real piano.
But there is still a limitation in pianoteq. You cant change the piano sound in the middle of a performance.

Supose a pianist perform a composition and realise that some moviments or short segments would fit much better in a piano with some characteristisc, while other segments would fit better with a different piano with other characteristcs. What about if he could change or morphing one set of piano characteristics into another set while playing?

That's were enters the morphing pedal. The pedal would gradually (along pedal range) change one set of characteristcs into another.
You culd choose what characteristics would be changed and set the pedal you want to worek as a morphing pedal.

What about that?    :-)

Last edited by Beto-Music (22-11-2009 01:06)

Re: Morphing piano.

Just like the Kore Player from Native Instruments?
Yes, I agree, at this moment, although the switch-time is short compared to a sample based instrument, you still hear a glitch in sound when switching between set-ups. So a smooth transition between set-ups would indeed be very welcome. And it would be very interesting if this is done by morphing. An additional functionality would be to choose the morphing time, i.e. the time needed to morph from one set-up to another. Of morph-time of zero would mean: instant switch.
I don't know if a morphing pedal would come in handy because you have to hold it down during the parts of the recital where you need the second set-up. Maybe it can be part of the selection-process (e.g. choosing by hand) of an arbitrary set-up.
Although I've to say that a morphing pedal is appealing and could give some nice effects.... ;-)

Last edited by hvaartsen (22-11-2009 22:37)

Re: Morphing piano.

Well, I'm not sure if pianoteq can change from one model to another, like from Bechstein to YC5, without noticeable interferences ou gaps.  But change from one setting of a Bechstein to a another setting of the Bechstein' is more plausible.
Maybe the morphing could be sellective, like do not alter the keys that you still hold, or maybe neither the keys that it's still "singing" significantly.

This idea came when I was imagining a way to use pianoteq to achive something that would never be possible with any real grand piano.
All composers, when working for a sigle piano music, have to work with the limitation that the piano sound characteristics cannot be altered along the performance.

Let's imagine Beethoven's Pastoral for example, as this composition varies along, in terms of moments of very different feelings. A pianist can't adjust a real grand piano a soft smooth quality when the music sounds lyric, and readjust to a hard and deep tone when the music feelings get violent and angry.  He is limited by to the playing technics.


Like said Philippe: "Pianoteq makes everything possible"
Ok..., let's put those "impossible things" to work.    :-)

Maybe switch between three different sets of piano adjustments can be possible with just one progressive pedal. As the pedal is not pressed we would have one setting, while a very slight pressing would give a second setting, and a complete pressing a third setting.

Who knows... maybe soneone work in a composition that only pianoteq can get it right.


For the future, I imagine pianoteq simulating a violin, and the player could change the violing form vibrato to stacato and others characteristic, while playing.  VST Symphonic Orchestra do not allow such things, but is often in real violing as it depends of playing technics.

Last edited by Beto-Music (22-11-2009 22:59)

Re: Morphing piano.

Hi, I'm new here and this is my first post- I just got Pianoteq this past week and am enjoying it very much.

To comment on your morphing idea- IF it's possible to load multiple instances of Pianoteq at once, say in a sequencer on different midi channels, it may be possible to use a footpedal or fader to smoothly fade from one to another.

This would depend on your keyboard controller of course, and on whether or not Pianoteq can run more than one instance at the same time. Does anyone know?

Regards,
Michael

Re: Morphing piano.

Hi Michael,

To answer your first post ;-) Yes it's is possible to run multiple instances of Pianoteq (both stand alone as VST) at the same time. I did it on my computer. Running it within a VST host gives you more control though.

Cheers,
Herman

Re: Morphing piano.

I believe that Cantabile (the full version) allows morphing between two instruments, so you could preload two instances of PT and then morph from one to the next. Don't know if it lets you set up a midi cc to control it, however.

Re: Morphing piano.

Two instances of pianoteq could be interesting, but it's not able to be like a real morphing piano, cause would be separated pianos, separated ressonances.

Re: Morphing piano.

If two instances crossfaded into each other, the two separate resonances would crossfade also, and it could be a pretty smooth transition.

Re: Morphing piano.

Beto-Music wrote:

Two instances of pianoteq could be interesting, but it's not able to be like a real morphing piano, cause would be separated pianos, separated ressonances.

I bet if you would do it you wouldn't notice THAT big a difference. It's all just crossfading. One is crossfading parameters directly, the other is crossfading sound globally. It's nonetheless very usable.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Morphing piano.

Well, it would take two times processing power, sice the ressonance would require that both painos would be working, even than one it's not listened, otherwise the other would start from zero each time the switch from one to another.

Maybe Modart could start with morphing possibilities to simpler things, like hamer hardness. We set two hammer hardness settings, and choose a pedal to switch between both.

Re: Morphing piano.

I suspect there would be times, while crossfading, or morphing, when nearly twice the processing power would be needed, but when playing one instrument and not the other, the CPU meter for one would be at 0% unless I'm mistaken.

Re: Morphing piano.

Why not trying automation? Unless you want single notes to be modified in real time, that could be another solution.

Re: Morphing piano.

Beto-Music wrote:

Well, it would take two times processing power, sice the ressonance would require that both painos would be working, even than one it's not listened, otherwise the other would start from zero each time the switch from one to another.

Not really, it should take higher CPU load only when the crossfade is happening. When only one or the other piano sound plays, CPU load should return to normal. It can be made that way.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Morphing piano.

Philippe: Automation?  How exactly would be that?

What about start only with the hammer hardnnes morphing? Hammer hardness do not present noise, if we change while palying pianoteq.
We set two hammer hardness adjusts, and set a progressive pedal to control between adjusts. Halpf sustein would get a intermediary value from one set to another.

Maybe a adapted version for test, for just some of us test and comment.


Evildragon:  In case of crossfade is made during a moment of sustein, the second piano, that will emerge, needs to be on sustein for some time, otherwise his sound will enter without the ressonances created from sustein.
It's like when we run a midi to play pianoteq. If we stop the midi, even from a short time, and restart, the piano sound got different since the resonances were cut and restarted latter, loosing the ressonance that was emanating before.
Since the morphing is not predictable, as someone would choose use when he wants, both pianos would need to computating all the time.

guillaume wrote:

Why not trying automation? Unless you want single notes to be modified in real time, that could be another solution.

Re: Morphing piano.

Beto-Music wrote:

Philippe: Automation?  How exactly would be that?

I'm not using it myself (not enough time) but there are other threads in the forum mentioning automation, and maybe you can get help from users here.

Re: Morphing piano.

The trouble with automation is that some parameters are not fluidly changing... the model needs a fraction of a second to update itself to the new parameters, and this is perceived as an interruption in sound output.

If there were a way to automate all parameters without such interruptions, you would have your morphing Pianoteq.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Morphing piano.

Beto-music:

Well, the latest Cantabile Lite (free) does allow morphing (and randomization), but I can't see any way to attach it to a cc. I'm not sure how it's controlled or timed. But it apparently lets you morph either a specific slider or several, and lets you set the exact start and end points for the change, or morph to an entirely different preset.

To access the morphing settings, open the interface for the vst instrument and, at the top, click on Edit\Morph tools.

(If you download the Cantabile lite program, be aware that the big Download button at the top of their main download page downloads the 32 bit version. To get the 64 bit version, which is needed if you use the 64 bit version of PT, scroll down and look to the right side of the screen.)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (25-11-2009 16:45)

Re: Morphing piano.

Thank you a lot folks.

Last edited by Beto-Music (26-11-2009 00:40)