Topic by lkeiger

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Topic: potential user

Hello, I was psyched to hear about the demo version, so I raced home to try it thinking I'd be blown away and immediately buy the product.  But I wasn't so blown away.  So wanted to discuss here and get your thoughts.

It wasn't until I hit the bass notes that the sound grabbed me.  I felt midrange was a bit thin...seemed like no resonance...sounded keyboard-ish as opposed to piano-ish.  I was impressed with the ability to nuance with low velocity.  I'm used to playing Yamaha Motif ES8 and was using that to trigger Pianoteq.  Of course I can't do low velocity nuance with the Motif, but I was a bit glad when the 20 minute demo ran out and I went back to playing the Mo piano.

1.  Is the demo version the full piano?
2.  Do you think it was a preset problem? 
3.  Is Pianoteq just not designed such that you could tweak it to really nail the rock/stage piano sound? 
4.  It seems designed for classical, but I gotta say I even think the more classical sound of the Yamaha S90ES piano is better...very full...resonant...

Again I gotta think it was a settings problem.  Any thoughts?  Is this totally out of line with your experience?

I was running it from MacBook Pro into my Yamaha Stagepas 500.

Reply by Glenn NK

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Re: potential user

Have you played with the settings, or are you using it "out of the box"?

I have near field powered bi-amp speakers and pretty cans, driven by a pretty good soundcard, and the sound I feel is impressive.

And have you played Pianoteq in real time?  I've tried a lot of DPs and listened to many sample demos - and that's why I use Pianoteq.

Also keep this in mind - whatever you have been playing for quite a while is "your piano".  I find there is nothing quite as awkward as sitting down at a strange piano - nothing sounds right until I've played for a bit.

When I got my first DP in 1990, I owned a Yamaha G2 (5'-8" grand), that I  had played extensively since 1975.  Then I played the DP and it became "my piano", and when I tried to play the Yamaha, it didn't sound or feel right.  And the DP was a 1990 Technics - not a high class sound at all - but I had completely adapted to it.

It will take you quite a while.

And yes, the demo is full fledged except there are some keys that don't sound.

If gig or perform, you might want to buy the Pro version - then you can really create your own sound.

Glenn

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Reply by Ecaroh

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Re: potential user

Ikeiger:

I can imagine your feelings about Pianoteq because I had exactly same first impression about it. But as Glenn suggested, you're still maybe littlebit Motif oriented to expect how should it sound. I also had adapt myself to play and listen to PTQ. Yesterday I played an acoustic piano on a gig and I have to say that sound and feeling was much more close to Pianoteq than for example my  Roland RD700GX which I use as a midicontroller for PTQ. In fact we tend to forget that acoustic piano is not usually so clear sounding that many of DP's try to say.

But anyway, I also think that compared to good sampled digital pianos PTQ has  some obvious benefits but it also has still some weaknesses. (But it's still developing... I hope)

In my opinion pianoteq works better in some registers than in the others. Lower notes and around middle C in are NOT its best parts. This is unfortunate because these are maybe most important parts for a player. In fact it seems that this Middle C register is the most difficult part to make it sound like a real piano. In my opinion this is also problem with Roland's new V-piano. But you can still make PTQ much better by tweaking it: I have my PTQ-piano which has some modifications in almost all parametres. I'm not sure that everybody in this forum would like it but for ME it sounds and feels very good.

If I had to name few good things about PTQ compared to sampled DPs these are the most obvious: "living" feeling of the sound (overall resonance and interaction of the parts), chance modify almost everything, playability (why this ancient MIDI has only 127 velocity steps???).

After I adapted my playing and my hearing to PTQ most of the DP's sound and feel like "dead" and they don't respond to my fingers like I would want.  Finally I must say that PTQ is better in more classical style. Sometimes I would like have a more present and clear "rock sound" and for me this Rock-piano-add-on was not a good solution: this model of (yamaha?) grand sounds strange and artificial. In this kind of demands maybe these sampled DPs still beat PTQ.

Last edited by Ecaroh (09-11-2009 09:29)

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Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: potential user

Ikeiger:

Be sure you dip the velocity curve a bit or a lot, and if you're using the Motif as a controller, that its curve is either linear or also dipped. (The default PTeq settings assume a good weighted action. ) Otherwise, you'll just be hitting medium to high strikes, so the sound will seem undynamic compared to samples.

Have you tried all of the presets? Including the Worn-out preset and the Binaural M's? Try moving the mic's or the virtual head a bit to positions where you might actually sit, or over the top of the piano.

And the sound does require a good sound card, etc...

If you can't get a very good sound using these steps, something is wrong.

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: potential user

Ecaroh wrote:

and for me this Rock-piano-add-on was not a good solution: this model of (yamaha?) grand sounds strange and artificial. In this kind of demands maybe these sampled DPs still beat PTQ.

To me YC5 sounds the most dynamic of the lot. Excellent model, very tweakable, great and punchy fortissimo. Awesome for rock

Hard work and guts!

Reply by lkeiger

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Re: potential user

Jake, I'll try tweaking more.  I didn't know what piano default to pick...there were so many and none of the descriptions made sense to me (I'm used to keyboards that say "rock" "bright" "intimate" "aggressive" "honky tonk").  I was impressed with the low velocity playing, so I don't think the velocity curve was an issue.  My problem was when I played mid or strong the piano just didn't sit up and takeover the room like I want a piano to do.  It felt kinda empty. 

Also I was told Apple Macbook Pro comes with a good enough sound card for any music production.  Is that BS?  Would it sound better if I switched to an advanced card?  I thought the sound was being created in RAM, not based on the card technology.  Is that only true with sampled pianos where the sound comes from memory?

Reply by hvaartsen

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Re: potential user

The waveform is digitally created but the sound card has to convert it to analogue signal (of course if you use analogue output). Therefor the quality of DACs (digital analogue converters) are important. You should know that main part of the price of a soundcard is determined by the DAC and ADC converters used.

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: potential user

lkeiger,

Unfortunately, no computers come with good sound cards unless you buy a system from a company that specializes in building them for the music industry. Getting a good external sound card for around $150-$200 will greatly improve your sound. (And greatly increase the volume of all of your music--you'll be surprised how much difference there is and what you've missed.)

But even with a built-in sound card, you should be able to get a very good piano sound with PianoTeq.

It's hard to discuss piano sound in the abstract, however. Two ideas:

1. Can you post a brief mp3 of a piano sound that you like? Just a few notes or chords?

2. You mention wanting a rock sound. Did you look over the thread here with the list of "rock" videos? (I don't know what to call Sarah McLachlan--rock, country, pop, alt-country?) Do any of  the videos have a sound close to what you want? I know most of the videos have problems, but do any of them at least have a timbre at a specific time in the video that you want?

Reply by ReBased

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Re: potential user

I have the same reaction to the presets.  I find them tame and lifeless (but then I do more rocky stuff).

Definitely play with the EQ for brightness, hammer hardness for more attack, detune it a bit, try more sympathic resonance etc.  And try moving the virtual microphones around a little, that can make a lot of difference.  The sounds I've come up with are nothing like the presets, so you can probably find something you like.

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: potential user

lkeiger,

Unfortunately, no computers come with good sound cards unless you buy a system from a company that specializes in building them for the music industry. Getting a good external sound card for around $150-$200 will greatly improve your sound. (And greatly increase the volume of all of your music--you'll be surprised how much difference there is and what you've missed.)

But even with a built-in sound card, you should be able to get a very good piano sound with PianoTeq.

It's hard to discuss piano sound in the abstract, however. Two ideas:

1. Can you post a brief mp3 of a piano sound that you like? Just a few notes or chords?

2. You mention wanting a rock sound. Did you look over the thread here with the list of "rock" videos? (I don't know what to call Sarah McLachlan--rock, country, pop, alt-country?) Do any of  the videos have a sound close to what you want? I know most of the videos have problems, but do any of them at least have a timbre at a specific time in the video that you want?

Reply by DonSmith

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Re: potential user

Jake Johnson wrote:

Unfortunately, no computers come with good sound cards unless you buy a system from a company that specializes in building them for the music industry. Getting a good external sound card for around $150-$200 will greatly improve your sound. (And greatly increase the volume of all of your music--you'll be surprised how much difference there is and what you've missed.)

I played a few MIDI files in Pianoteq, then played the same files in Windows Media Player (full volume) to compare them. While the sound was more pleasing and sounded better in Pianoteq, the volume output was greater in Windows Media Player (maybe by about a third, or so, higher). So, maybe the engine that drives Pianoteq could have more power added to it. It could include a separate global volume control, than the one in the Output section, that is saved with the individual piano settings. This might enhance all the piano models play back.

Trying to tune the pianos to sound higher could distort them.

I'm playing through Edirol MA-7A monitors (retailed about £45 two years ago) They sound good to me. Especially if I turn the volume up to mid point on the volume, bass and treble, to match what I think is a good level that a acoustic grand piano would output.

Get the best sound set-up you can. There is an awful lot of detail in the Pianoteq sound.

Last edited by DonSmith (10-11-2009 21:46)

Reply by Glenn NK

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Re: potential user

DonSmith wrote:

I played a few MIDI files in Pianoteq, then played the same files in Windows Media Player (full volume) to compare them. While the sound was more pleasing and sounded better in Pianoteq, the volume output was greater in Windows Media Player (maybe by about a third, or so, higher). So, maybe the engine that drives Pianoteq could have more power added to it. It could include a separate global volume control, than the one in the Output section, that is saved with the individual piano settings. This might enhance all the piano models play back.

The volume output of Pianoteq must of course, be adjustable to suit the variability of midi files.  This is easily done by changing Volume in the OUTPUT section.

For every preset I've developed, I have several versions:  -10dB, -5dB, 0dB, and +5dB (occasionally other values such as + or -2dB).  I pick the highest output level that will not clip anywhere in the arrangement.

Midi files (even my own) vary considerably not only in overall loudness, but from part to part (dynamics).  So the output level really has to be tailored to the midi.

Glenn

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