Topic by RaymondRobijns

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  • RaymondRobijns
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Topic: Erard - strange behaviour - overtones?

I am working on a sequence of piano pieces of Chopin. The less well known and I am using the Erard - a tiny bit tweaked - and in the Nocturne in C# Op. Posth. I noticed that sometimes the left hand notes produce an overtone one octave higher than written and very pronounced.

I am working with SONAR 8 Producer, 64 bits version. XP64, of course and Pianoteq 64 bits version. In order to facilitate the solution for this, I ask the makers of this GREAT piano, to tell me what they want.

Audio files,
MIDI files,
Pianoteq settings,

??? Whatever, I will deliver this to get things right. By the way it is really a great instrument, I love it all the way.

Write to: ramrobijns@hetnet.nl

Have a nice weekend,

Raymond

Website (only in dutch for now) http://www.demuziekvanraymondrobijns.nl

Reply by EvilDragon

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Re: Erard - strange behaviour - overtones?

RaymondRobijns wrote:

I am working on a sequence of piano pieces of Chopin. The less well known and I am using the Erard - a tiny bit tweaked - and in the Nocturne in C# Op. Posth. I noticed that sometimes the left hand notes produce an overtone one octave higher than written and very pronounced.

I am working with SONAR 8 Producer, 64 bits version. XP64, of course and Pianoteq 64 bits version. In order to facilitate the solution for this, I ask the makers of this GREAT piano, to tell me what they want.

Audio files,
MIDI files,
Pianoteq settings,

??? Whatever, I will deliver this to get things right. By the way it is really a great instrument, I love it all the way.

Write to: ramrobijns@hetnet.nl

Have a nice weekend,

Raymond

It would be best if you would provide the audio and .fxp patches, post it in the Files section, then we'll see and hear what's going on

Hard work and guts!

Reply by RaymondRobijns

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Re: Erard - strange behaviour - overtones?

Even after numerous experiments with hammer settings, dynamics, mic. positions, I can't get rid of it. The strangest thing is that it doesn't occur all the time. Mostly when the right hand had a sustained note held and the left hand is playing along.

The notes on which I'd heard it the most are E3 and C#3. I've cut the Wave file and presented only the last part where you can hear it better. No MP3 format, because then the effect is mainly lost in conversion.

Included:
in wave format the last part of this Nocturne
pdf format of the score I used
fxp settings of "my" Erard


Here is the link to all files:

http://www.box.net/shared/gnvxospy27

With regards,

Raymond

Website (only in dutch for now) http://www.demuziekvanraymondrobijns.nl

Reply by Gilles

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Re: Erard - strange behaviour - overtones?

I have tried your fxp and the effect seems due to your mic positioning.

If you switch to binaural with the same fxp, the second harmonic resonance (on hitting the C#3 for instance) completely disappears!

It seems you have hit on a mic position that picks up or excites more of the second harmonic which is roughly equal in amplitude to the first on the Erard, as I have noticed when doing some spectrum analysis recently.

Notice though that I use the standalone 32bit WinXP version.

Last edited by Gilles (01-08-2009 14:09)

Reply by RaymondRobijns

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Re: Erard - strange behaviour - overtones?

I didn't a expect a reply yet, but I was notified that somebody downloaded the files, so.... a short peak.

Giles and others,  thank you for the ultra fast reply and the solution. I certainly will try this. I thoght I had to do with overtones, but couldn't find a workable solution.

Many thanks

Raymond

Website (only in dutch for now) http://www.demuziekvanraymondrobijns.nl

Reply by skip

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Re: Erard - strange behaviour - overtones?

Is C#3 middle C#3? If so, I didn't really hear a problem when playing the FXP,  however, after altering the mic positions, yes, I could *then* hear an improvement.  FWIW.

Greg.

Reply by RaymondRobijns

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Re: Erard - strange behaviour - overtones?

skip wrote:

Is C#3 middle C#3? If so, I didn't really hear a problem when playing the FXP,  however, after altering the mic positions, yes, I could *then* hear an improvement.  FWIW.

Greg.

Sorry, yes it was the middle C#. I work in Sonar and there it starts at a different base. I myself did some tweaking, having in mind the previous replies. Finally I found a workable solution.

Raymond

Website (only in dutch for now) http://www.demuziekvanraymondrobijns.nl

Reply by Gilles

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Re: Erard - strange behaviour - overtones?

skip wrote:

Is C#3 middle C#3? If so, I didn't really hear a problem when playing the FXP,  however, after altering the mic positions, yes, I could *then* hear an improvement.  FWIW.

Greg.

I'm confused here. I did my test by hitting the C# BELOW middle C# which is the one shown as the bass of the left hand chord in the last pages of the Chopin partition.

That's where the effect was most prominent. I didn't hear it higher. I know numbering octaves starting from 0 or 1 is confusing, but I think I'm right here.

In fact, a time-lapse spectrum of this C#3 using the given fxp showed that the 2nd harmonic started by decreasing about at the same speed as the fundamental, but then increased to finish at an amplitude HIGHER than the fundamental which explains the sound heard.

I think this is normal behavior for a piano such as the Erard but was emphasized by the mic setup.

Reply by skip

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Re: Erard - strange behaviour - overtones?

Sorry - my mistake - revisiting.

Update: listened to the recording a second time, and I can't hear anything wrong. If anything, a slight bit of "octavation" on middle C#3, but I would never have complained about it. Again - FWIW.  Can you pinpoint an exact time in the recording that I should be focussing on?

Another update: I see that Raymond *did* mean middle C#3 afterall.

To me, this "octavation" characteristic in Erard is quite pleasant - I feel that it's just the character of the instrument, and it doesn't bother me.

Greg.

Last edited by skip (01-08-2009 23:41)