Judging by the amount of proposals to improve Pianoteq's features in the various forum topics, I think Pianoteq should add a wish-list page to their website. To make the requests more manageable, it could be limited to which piano users would like to see physically modeled.
I'd wish for a modeled Bosendorfer Imperial 290:
http://www.company7.com/bosendorfer/audio.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YytjNX3PMOs
Gorgeous!
I'd wish for a modeled Bosendorfer Imperial 290
Seconded!
Neil
as many have said repeatedly
we need a "battered old upright"!
We don't even know if Pianoteq can precise emulate all warmth and woodness of Steinway and Bosendorfer pianos.
If thin sound is still some problem, I think will take some time to get the refinement to be able to emulate those models.
I would really, really appreciate a Boesendorfer or Steinway model....REALLY!:)
Cheers
Stefan
If Modartt is physically modeling their pianos, they would have to program the precise coordinates of the piano in question. If they do this, then I believe it would be possible to achieve the sound of any piano.
In sampled pianos, they have to record as many recordings as possible to get a realistic sound and behavior of the piano. So the only way to get a Bosendorfer, Steinway, Yamaha, Fazioli etc. would be to get one and program it thoroughly.
This may take some time, but I'm sure such an investment would make Pianoteq irresistible any keyboard player. I'm sure the producers of sampled sets could see the continual improvements in physical modeling and realise that the 'writing is on the wall' sampled technology. Will they then employ physical modeling themselves? Have they already started? Who knows?
As long as Modartt don't stand still, I don't see why they can't be the leading software provider for the keyboard market. It's already very impressive, but I feel if customers demonstrate a clear preference for a choice of piano(s) (say, the top three-five), then there must be a reason.
Donsmith, Modartt don't need to put a real Grand piano on the road.
They just nedd sampled sounds for each note, with about 3 or 4 velocities, and some informations about the piano, playability, measurements. Amazing, isn't it???
Despite don't be a sampler, pianoteq is created by analyze of the sounds, and informations about shape and other details, to create a physical model.
The problem is that Steinway and Bosendorfer are incredible knowed by people, and the minimal variance or the minimal thin sound, or metalic, or any brief hint of artificiality, in any note of a pianoteq modelled recreation of those, would be noticed by many pianists.
They could create a nice Steinway or Bosendorfer yet. But I think (not sure) it would not be perfect enough.
Indeed they could just get the piano notes sounds of very well recorded sample software, like Old Lady and Ivory, and use it to create the mathematical piano model.
Another reason they probably don't intent a Steinway add-on, is that Steinway is still a powerfull trademark, and due own Modartt ethic values, they consider that recreate a Steinway would not be very kind to the Steinway Company.
Its true that they don't have to create those Pianos, but what I like about Painoteq is that they could. The general aim of Modartt seems to be to recreate real pianos and keyboards, acoustic and electric with physical modeling. All these could be compared by its real counterpart. I think that's the beauty of the projects that they've taken on.
Once the general piano is created we could they make fine adjustments to suit our own tastes. Just like what happens with any real piano.
Philippe Guillaume, tuned pianos and he's cleverly got us all tuning pianos. Thats brilliant. Pianoteq is truly educational. It involves the user in many ways.
My guess is that Modartt could pretty well mimic any piano so that it would be indistinguishable from the real thing (as a recording), but the computations to do it would overtax most of the Pianoteq users' computers.
Modartt must keep the present users in mind - there is no point in programming to achieve complete reality if it requires a supercomputer.
We must keep in mint that there isn't a commercial product made that isn't a compromise between perfection and cost.
Glenn
PS - just read DonSmith's comments:
Yes Pianoteq is really quite educational - it forces us to learn more about acoustic pianos and how sound is produced. It's quite complex, but interesting, but when one learns more about the complex interplay of a piano's parts, we can better adjust Pianoteq.
If Pianoteq don't do it, someone else might. Others are already using physical modeling.
http://www.roland.com/V-Piano/
PS - 'force' is a strong word.
Someone in this forum try out Roland V-Piano, and said that the middle register sounds synthetic.
Middle register seen a universal problem to moddeled technology.
If Pianoteq don't do it, someone else might. Others are already using physical modeling.
There is another physmod piano out there called Pianissimo - I tried the demo, and although it's quite cheap it is not worth the price (the sound matches the price).
Roland's V-Piano just can't compete in price (at least to me, an amateur that plays for enjoyment).
No matter who comes up with physmod, the product is still restrained by cost effectiveness and the power of current computers.
Pianoteq is more pricey, but to me at least, it's worth the price because it delivers. If one is a gigging musician, it shouldn't take long to recover the cost in tips alone.
There is a rumoured Pro version of Pianoteq, but I suspect it will require something like the new quad core computers.
Glenn
Another reason they probably don't intent a Steinway add-on, is that Steinway is still a powerfull trademark, and due own Modartt ethic values, they consider that recreate a Steinway would not be very kind to the Steinway Company.
Hi Beto-Music. If I am not mistaked, Guillame mentioned somewhere in the forum that the C3 is in fact based on the Steinway D. I am a huge fan of pianoteq. It's definitely a threat to Sample-Based software and hardware modules. But I wouldn't go as far as saying that Modartt is a potential threat to Steinway (or any other fine acoustic piano manufacturer for that matter). This is somewhat demeaning Steinway ... When you put down 50K (or more) for a grand piano, you are not paying just for the sound. The mechanics, and the organic feeling of reality are not less important. And in 50K - you are buying a work of art.
C3 models are based on Steinway D somehow, but also use other piano, if I'm not wrong. It's not a Steinway recreation.
No digital piano will be like a real Grand, cause the soundboard can't be reproduced precisely with speakers. And, of course, a real Steinway it's a work of art, like you said.
I didn't meant that any digital piano will replace real Grand pianos with such quality, but I refer about the ethic Modartt have about recreate trademarks like Steinway.
Both the Steinway and Bosendorfer are historical as well as contemporary instruments. All the major piano software developers have sampled them from live recordings. They appear as soundbanks and soundfonts. I've never noticed either company complaining about the use of their brand. (Though I wonder how they see the development of the digital piano).
I would like to see Modartt produce these as best they can. There will always be debate about sound and realism etc., but I believe, Pianoteq users deserve to have the option to indulge in the 'sound' of these great two 'Behemoths' that have been fundamental in the history of the piano.
Pianoteq is not far away from producing these sounds (my opinion). It has a great sound as it is. As long as they keep striving to improve, I'm sure it will just get better with each version. Customer feedback is very important and competition should help in the evolution of the process.
Ps: here is a link that allows you to try out the other software:
http://www.try-sound.com
Taking from Erard add-on, I think pianoteq could create a Steinway add-on near or so good as V-piano's steinway.
By the way, if someone could make a comparison of V-paino and a very good Steinway sampler, it would be welcome.
Who in this forum live near a large digital piano store???
There is a rumoured Pro version of Pianoteq, but I suspect it will require something like the new quad core computers.
Glenn
I suspect it will not go that overboard. It's just adjusting the model per key, the similar thing Modartt does when several users come out and say "hey, there's a little metalicness in the second bass octave" or stuff like that. They go out and manually adjust it key by key. This is the power you're gonna have at your fingertips with the Pro version. So I think the system requirements are gonna be the same by a large margin.
Well, I really would like another add-on for a vintage Grand piano, like Erard.
Mayge another Grand from the 20's.
I would like to see the control of individual notes added to Pianoteq.
If will be available in the professional version that is coming.
I would like to see the control of individual notes added to Pianoteq.
1) Further improvement of the acoustic piano
2) Since the vibraphone is so impressive, I eagerly awaite more mallet instruments, like the marimba and xylophone
2b) Perhaps a way to hit the bars of the mallet instrument on a different place by using the modulation wheel
3) A celesta (to impress friends with Theme from Harry Potter)
4) A different and better sounding Fender Rhodes
2b) Perhaps a way to hit the bars of the mallet instrument on a different place by using the modulation wheel
Ooo, this got me thinking! How cool would it be to have real-time control over palm-muting the strings, ala George Winston? I'm talking about that tone produced by placing the palm of the hand over the strings being struck by the hammers.
To be able to control this in real-time, either with a mod wheel or with an SW1 or SW2 switch, would be insane!!
Curt
P.S. Note that I stressed real-time. I know that you can get this sound by adjusting one of the parameters... um, wait a minute. Did I just get my own wish here?? I can actually assign MIDI control to that parameter in Pianoteq, can I not???
I really like all the electo-acoustic instruments as they are, however I would like the ability to control the amount of tine sound in the Rhodes.
(I consider the tine sound a "defect" and if I can I dial it out completely. Some competing products do have an individual control for the tine level, for example)
Greg.
um, wait a minute. Did I just get my own wish here?? I can actually assign MIDI control to that parameter in Pianoteq, can I not???
Yes, you can
As for the bösendorfer imperial 290 and the recordings on http://www.company7.com/bosendorfer/audio.html: Even trough my old, little canton speakers, this just makes me sit here with a big fat grin on my face. I enjoy the sound of pianoteq as it is today, but _this_ is a different story - this doesn't just sound exactly like a good piano (as pianoteq, impressively, does today), this thing speaks.
Modartt, I'd gratefully pay for that! (and be it by having to buy more cpus)
p.s.: A different question: Do piano makers hold a copyright on the sound of their pianos? Or rather, on the overall design - not the technical details which might of course be patented, but the certain 'it' those companies developed through hundreds of iterations (and might not even have words for, let alone written documentation, or do they?). So, just as a thought, could that be a reason why Modartt hesitate to model a product of a contemporary piano maker? I bet patent lawyers didn't see that one coming.
But to repeat the main purpose of this post: Bösendorfer 290, make it possible, guys - I'd kiss your feet, If you so wish.
This mp3 shows a lot of woodness and warm sound. I don't know if it's time to modelling technology try replicate such difficult characteristics.
http://www.company7.com/bosendorfer/aud...6-2003.mp3
Who would be satisfied with a Bosendorfer pianoforte add-on???
Who would be satisfied with a Bosendorfer pianoforte add-on???
This would be a nice add-on, but I'd love to see Modartt try for the 290.
I'd love to know how Physical Modelling works. What is a piano string? Where is it? What is it made from? Where is the soundboard? How does time and space work? etc, etc,.. Its fascinating that an equation can create strings that plays any kind of piano sound.
Creating things virtually on computers seem to be quite standard: Computer games (i.e. Grand-Turismo), flight simulators, avatars in cyberspace, architecture, the list goes on.
Its a remarkable achievement that Pianoteq sounds the way it does.
Has anyone heard this digital Bosendorfer?
Sound produced by the Vienna Symphonic Library.
http://www.boesendorfer.com/index.php?m=70&lang=en
Review: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/...276047.php
Library sampled: http://vsl.co.at/en/67/4587/4953.vsl
I think few people in the world can play Moonlight Sonata 3th movement so well:
http://vsl.co.at/Player2.aspx?Lang=1&DemoId=4956
I would like to see a manual that explains things in more detail. Especially for the proposed 'Pro-version.'
'Pianoteq for dummies.'
I think few people in the world can play Moonlight Sonata 3th movement so well:
1. To my knowledge, VSL (Vienna Symphonic Librar) produced 2 products of 290 Imperial. The first one is called "Borsendofer Imperial" consisting of 54GB samples, which was available for users about 2 or 3 years ago:
http://vsl.co.at/en/211/442/478/449/287.htm.
The second - recently produced - called 'Vienna Imperial' consisting of 500GB samples:
http://vsl.co.at/en/211/442/478/1701/1305.htm
2. Guy Bacos is a great composer/pianist. He composed a lot of new songs and used 'Symphonic Cube' - orchestra sampled version - to demostrate his music... About the 3rd movement of Beethoven's Moonlight sonata, Mr. Bacos used 'Borsendofer Imperial' version (the first one). For Mr. Bacos capability of piano skill, yes, he is great. For the capability of the piano sound, no, it is not really convincable - although it is good comparing to other sample based libraries. (this is just my taste).
3. Guy and the other great midi programmer there, Jay Bacal, are working on new version demos. They actually posted some good ones:
http://vsl.co.at/en/67/702/704/414.htm
I like all of the new demos for Vienna Imperial: Etude in C# (Scriabin), Basson Sonata (Saint Saens), Etude Op 25/11 and 25/6 and Op 10/3 (Chopin). Also Tchaikovsky's 1st movement of the piano concerto No 1.
To me, this is a very promising sampled library.
4. However, as a faithful customer of Modartt, I would like to play Pianoteq than sampled library for its playable features. My wish is that, somehow, in the coming Pro-version, they would model Imperial 290 just like they did model Steinway for version 3.i. (I noticed something interesting: although for current version we don't see/hear extra notes except standard 88 keys, when I tried to reverse the keyboard using the recommendation/file from the other user in this forum (using this current vesion 3.i), I can play some extra basses -- really low ones. I don't remember how low it goes, but it can reach to the lowest C easily.
For short, please add my vote for modeling Imperial 290!
I heard a mp3 from a Erard grand piano from 1890, and it was a bit different from pianoteq Erad add onn. I think modelled technology still do not consider wood itself, but consider just the hardness and impedance of wood.
http://www.giovannivelluti.com/resource...proptu.mp3
http://www.giovannivelluti.com/it/cdproject.html
Just my opinion, but since wood have pores, this change the resonance aspects. Stradivarios famoust violins had special pores due a vintage treatment to avoid worms, and was responsible for the most of extra quality characteristics.
When I heard a real Steinway and a real Bosendorfer timbre, I noticed that there is something not emulated in Pianoteq, like some absortion of high frequencies inside each note, differently along note duration.
Maybe it's just a matter of time to those characteristics be emulated too and we finally get a compolete natural timbre, warm and with a lot of those resonance woodness (not wood noise from hammers).
When I heard a real Steinway and a real Bosendorfer timbre, I noticed that there is something not emulated in Pianoteq, like some absortion of high frequencies inside each note, differently along note duration.
Maybe it's just a matter of time to those characteristics be emulated too and we finally get a compolete natural timbre, warm and with a lot of those resonance woodness (not wood noise from hammers).
Maybe the 'Pro-version' will allow more manipulation of the sound. Maybe its new engine will add something extra to all the instruments without the need to tweak it much.
Have you tried using the Reverberation settings? You can create some atmospheric sounds from there. Maybe some sort of editing curves feature like that found in the 'EQ' and 'Velocity' settings could be introduced here (or a Woody Slider ). Also the ability to save your own presets in this section.
This is my first post to the forum so, before getting to my wish list I just want to thank Modartt for this fantastic piece of software.
1. Cristofori fortepiano. There are some very nice copies around that could be modeled.
2. Clavichords. Fretted and unfretted.
3. I would also love the Bösendorfer 290.
I was watching a video of someone playing the new (real) Rhodes softly, and the sound of the tines being deadended was very noticable, and pleasant - I had forgotten how important that was. Add this to the wishlist please. Same goes for the Wurly I think too.
I know Pianoteq already makes a sound on the release, but it's not the same. For the Rhodes, at least, I could hear a "wow" sound as the tines are muffled by the damplers - I don't hear this in Pianoteq. I think a rapidly swept low-pass filter might do a good job, although that might be cheating.
Greg.
I once had a Yamaha YPT200 (61 Keys). It had a tutorial feature that played built-in MIDI music files. This feature allowed you to change the tempo of the music so that you could slow it down to see how the tune was played.
Would it be possible for Pianoteq to include a similar feature, to slow the tempo of a MIDI file down, in its MIDI player section?
I've got many MIDI files that I would love to learn to play, but can't get the music sheets.
_____________
PS: But not at the expense of the lightness of the overall software.
Most requeired wishs form people here:
1-Peace on world
2-Cure for cancer
3-A Steinway add-on
4-A Bosendorfer 290 add-on
But If you place cure of cancer in 4- , I suggest you get some treatment ;-)
About the midi files.. yeah, something to help convert it to sheet. it's kind easy to program the very basic of it, I imagine. Maybe just a opition to add the notes in the sheet lines. Visualize the notes in each line... The problem is a machine interpret the music to get the duration of notes translated to a sheet. Encore do something, but is very far to be perfect.
Most requeired wishs form people here:
About the midi files.. yeah, something to help convert it to sheet. it's kind easy to program the very basic of it, I imagine. Maybe just a opition to add the notes in the sheet lines. Visualize the notes in each line... The problem is a machine interpret the music to get the duration of notes translated to a sheet. Encore do something, but is very far to be perfect.
Please let Pianoteq keep doing what it can and should do best: creating a beautiful pianosound. Creating good sheet music from MIDI files is a very complex task. All major music software (Cubase, Logic, Finale, Sibelius, and the likes) developers have tried this. Some with better results than others. But if you want my honest opinion: none of them do this job very well. The main reason is that the MIDI standard was not created (in the 1980's) with the possibility in mind of creating sheet music in the first place.
The built-in MIDI player/recorder is good enough for testing. I really hope it will never be more than that. Let the Pianoteq guys concentrate on their main task: improving Pianoteq fysical modelling to get the best pianosound possible.
I would like Pianoteq to be able to play of folder of midi files, so I can select a piano and be entertained with that piano sound for a period of time.
I would like Pianoteq to be able to play of folder of midi files, so I can select a piano and be entertained with that piano sound for a period of time.
1+
If this idea is easy to implement, I would like this feature in Pianoteq. Would be great for many purposes, including listening to several versions of a song to decide on which to use in a project.
Could Pianoteq increase the size of the Velocity settings window, add a vertical and horizontal grid and make it easier to select the points that you create? At the moment its to small and sometimes hard to pick up the points.
Another request:
I often play a midi file (that I have recorded) and try various presets to see which one I like best. I may go from a C3 to an Erard for example.
What I'd like to be able to do is return to the last preset I used (like switching back and forth between channels on the TV).
Glenn