Topic: Request for Pianoteq usage

I would like to hear a little about how everyone is using Pianoteq.

I use it periodically as an overlay sound with my Kawai CA63 native sound.

I send the Pianoteq sound and the Kawai sound to a mixer and then out through two Yamaha HS80M Powered Monitors.

I have other piano sounds also that I can blend with the Kawai sound and this gives me lots of options for changing my sound according to how my ears react on any given day.

I do not use any of my software sounds by themselves ever.  They just do not seem to contain enough of what I like to hear to stand by themselves.

Pianoteq is not excluded. 

I do not believe I could stand the Pianoteq sound by itself for a performance.

According to what I have been reading on this forum, this is not the case with most users here.

I get the feeling that most use Pianoteq as their piano sound period.

Maybe I am not getting the best sound that I could be getting with my equipment.

I would be interested in what others are doing with Pianoteq.

Thanks.

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

I have stopped using all Kontakt Pianos, including the Scarbee Rhodes and Wurlitzer, as they  were not nearly as realistic on Kontakt as they were w/ Gigastudio.
But I have an excellent realistic Upright sound, a perfectly tuned Grand, grewat Rhodes and Wurly, D6 too.
But I changed the mics and settings on every preset w/ the exception of the clean perfectly tuned Grand. I only brought the mics in closer as I have no use for Native Reverbs as I have Hardware and DSP I prefer.
But PTeq 4.1 has come a long way and is my live favorite.
I also have some really good sounding sfz Barbetta powered Midfields, and I know they are a big help with PC based sounds...
Native tends to have it;s sound eminate form the rear of larger cabinets, so I disable the mediocre effects, and try to run everything close mic'd and dry.
Give my Native spounds some Balls...

Hardware Analog, DSP, PhysMod. VSTi Romplers....

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

I use pianoteq for all my pianorecordings that I post on youtube or soundcloud. There is no piano that sounds this good in my household I always play it on my homemade digital piano, so I can play on an actual acoustic upright action.
For example I love exercising chopins etude op. 10 no. 1 on pianoteqs pleyel, as chopin himself used to play on pleyels It is very cool to have the ability of playing historical instruments on a modern piano action. I find it quite exiting to play instruments like a harpsichord with dynamics and different hammer hardness for light and heavy attacks.
I also think pianoteq is the ideal instrument to compose for the piano with headphones. But it doesn't happen often, that I do so. A friend of mine (piano teacher) would like to have pianoteq for his composing work, too.

regards,
Sebastian

DIY digital piano on salvaged piano action with homemade optical sensor bar: http://sebion.wordpress.com

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

(By chance, is your first name Don?)


I have daily access to a Steinway Model M and a K. Kawai grand, on which I and my piano students practice and give recitals.  Would you care to know on which instrument I make most of my recordings?  No, not the Steinway or K. Kawai -- most of my recordings are made via Pianteq PRO Version 4.

The most logical question is, "Why would anyone forsake freshly tuned and prepared Steinway and K. Kawai grands for Pianoteq?"  Here are my answers, based on actual experience:

1)  Ambient noise cannot be controlled:  Heating and air conditioning vents, outside road traffic, other people in the building, etc., wreak havoc on my live recordings of acoustic grand pianos.  One only needs to "listen" through headphone monitors to hear hiss and other ambient noise that cannot be eliminated through the microphones.  (This is not a soundproofed recording studio; rather it is a church setting.)

2)  Reverberation is hard to control:  Surely the church setting has natural reverb, but to deal with its constant presence, I need to position the microphones to a distance too far away from the piano to have reverb to be heard (rendering too "wet" of a piano sound), or position the mikes to closely to the piano to get rid of reverb (but then hearing too much directionality and mechanical piano noise -- Steinway's infamous 1980's teflon bushings, piano bench squeaks -- plus whistling nose hairs(!) from the pianist).

3)  Truly world class microphones are too expensive to acquire:  The various commercial brands of dynamic microphones at my disposal are too noisy, sometimes too directional, etc.).

4)  The natural dynamic range of the piano tends to be too wide for my recording equipment:  If I reduce the recording level to avoid percussive signal overload, then the balance of a given piece is recorded too quietly.  I tend to attempt to modify my playing style, so as not to overload the signal, nor bury the pianissimo passages in the room noise.

5) In order to control all of the above, I must then run the recording through a de-noiser, dynamic multiband compressor, equalizer, etc., etc.).  By the time all of the electronic trickery has been completed, the sound of the real piano does not sound as naturally as can be achieved by Pianoteq! 

6)  The pianos at my disposal (nominally 5'7" and 5'8") are too small to compete with the sounds of concert grands.  These pianos' low strings are very lacking in their fundamental frequencies, and they sound comparatively "twangy" to 9' concert grands (and Pianoteq).  Excessive bass tweaking only "muddies" the final sound and ruins dynamic range.

7) In my own opinion, the recorded sounds I am able to achieve via Pianoteq PRO Version 4 (albeit mostly in classical repertoire) more closely approach those of commercial recordings, rather than my rather futile attempts to record the sounds of real pianos at my personal disposal.


I am sure there are other reasons, but these are ones that come immediately to mind.

Others are welcome to chime in, if they so desire.


Cheers,


Joe


EDIT:  Added a Postscript

P.S.  I personally believe that my access to real pianos helps the way I am able to emote via Pianoteq.  Pianoteq behaves very closely to the way I am able to play on good quality, properly maintained grand pianos.

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (02-09-2012 01:15)

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

As followup to the posting made directly before this one, I overlaid the audio outputs from two performances of Ravel's Alborada -- one made live by Yours Truly on the Steinway M mentioned above, and a second live performance of the same music, by the same crazy pianist, using Pianoteq PRO Version 4.

No intent was made to play the Pianoteq version in sync with the tempo of the acoustic Steinway performance.  I just played them as the spirit moved me.  [EDIT: In retrospect, the live Steinway performance was made with the piano rolled into the Choir Room, whose reverberation was essentially nonexistent -- perhaps that is why the Steinway performance was played much faster than the live Pianoteq performance -- something I had not noticed until attempting to sync these two performances.  End EDIT]  As would be expected, the performances drift apart from one another by up to several seconds.  This also explains why both pianos sound "phasey" and out of tune, especially in the beginning of the piece, because no attempt was made to deliberately sync the entire performances. 

The purpose of this exercise is to allow you, the listener, to assess whether you prefer the live acoustic Steinway version or the live version played into Pianoteq 4.  The only post processing I did was to match the peak levels of the Steinway performance with the live Pianoteq performance, to within 1dB.  In order to carry this out, I needed to implement a +7dB net change to the live Steinway performance (+4dB added to the Steinway performance, AND a negative 3 dB change applied to the Pianoteq performance) in order to render peak values within 1dB of each other.

Some of the aspects you will hear (in accordance to my musings in the previous posting in this thread) are the hiss of the Steinway recording.  (I moved the Steinway out of the Church's sanctuary into the Choir Room and shut off the HVAC in order to minimize hiss -- but it remains clearly prominent in the Steinway recording, probably also due to poor recording electronics as compared to world-class, cost-no-object recording equipment).

By comparison, the Steinway M is a much shorter piano than any 9' (270cm) concert grand.  It's sounds are not as "even" (i.e., in need of a good regulation and tuning) as the Pianoteq live recording.  You will even hear the piano bench squeak, and will hear me "breathe" during the live Steinway performance -- no laughs about whistling nose hairs, please!

I believe that, after you hear this set of two grafted live performances, you will see why I prefer recording with Pianoteq than attempting to play "recording engineer" in a live recording situation.   Viva Pianoteq!

The enclosed URL allows you to hear my set of two performances grafted onto one another.  It is best heard through a good set of headphones.

Enjoy.

Joe

https://www.box.com/s/6yipboskdops2tkkl4jh

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (02-09-2012 01:19)

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

Thank you all for your responses.

What I glean from these responses is that recording plays a prominent role in your decision to use Pianoteq 4.

I am also wondering about just simply sitting down and playing music for enjoyment. 

Do you enjoy Pianoteq simply as a musical instrument to play and listen to .... or do you select some other option when you wish to do that ?

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

ddascher wrote:

Do you enjoy Pianoteq simply as a musical instrument to play and listen to .... or do you select some other option when you wish to do that ?

I enjoy it as an instrument in its own right. Not only when I need piano sounds, but when I need weird sounds, too. The Random button is a stroke of genius, the effects are really high quality, and per-note adjustments in Pro really make finetuning your own sounds a breeze. No other VST does what Pianoteq do, and so well. That's why it's an instrument in its own right.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

jcfelice88keys wrote:

As followup to the posting made directly before this one, I overlaid the audio outputs from two performances of Ravel's Alborada -- one made live by Yours Truly on the Steinway M mentioned above, and a second live performance of the same music, by the same crazy pianist, using Pianoteq PRO Version 4.
...

Interesting experiment, Joe...We can hear how close the tone of D4 is from a real Steinway. We can also hear how hard it is even for an experienced tuner like you, to maintain the the very accurate and permanent tuning of D4 (the live instrument is at fault of course, not the tuner...)

Although there is some left-right panning of the two performances, I wonder if you could also post a complete separate channels one (D4 mono left and Steinway M right for example) to better hear the differences. And also to better isolate the nose hair whistling that I can't hear very well...

I understand the mixed sound is fine for keeping the stereo image complete and blending the different acoustics, but as the piece gets very out of sync, they interfere a bit too much with each other.

This is only if it's easy to do of course, the point is aptly made with the present demo...

Last edited by Gilles (02-09-2012 14:29)

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

I think it is interesting that, up to now, 253 users have viewed this thread and only 3 or 4 have made any comment at all.

Correct me if I am wrong but this makes me believe that most users are, in fact, not using Pianoteq as a single piano sound for their playing pleasure.

I believe this is true because I suggested that this is true in my case and was wondering if anyone is actually using it in this manner.   I would think that users who love the sound and use it as their piano sound would come to the defense of it, but I do not see it happening.

I like Pianoteq for a lot of reasons and I am not sorry I purchased it, but I do not find it quite ready for a stand-alone piano sound.

I started this thread to see if I was alone with this position.

It appears not.

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

Where acoustic pianos are concerned, yes, Pianoteq is my only choice.... obviously I have tried others - samples just don't give me the responsiveness that I need/want.
Up to version 4 for Electrics I'd rather use Logic's EVP88,, but now with the new added effects I can get great sounds straight away too...
I use Pianoteq for recording when I need a piano sound - but I do a lot of atmospheric stuff - cinema style where I use Omnisphere for instance, so it's not 'just' piano that I play on the keyboard (and I also play guitar, bass and drums - the instruments... no plugins)
When I just want to play and 'doodle' around though, I play Pianoteq and again, it's responsiveness is what I love.. it 'takes me places'... sound, feel and character sort of 'sculpt' my musical thoughts...
That's something a sampled piano has never done. To me PT is as much a real instrument as my guitars, being very expressive...

Further - the point of 253 viewers and 4 commenters is probably the same sort of average you get when someone is mugged in a busy street..
people tend to watch and go other places...
Welcome to the age of 'zapping'
cheers
Hans

Last edited by creart (04-09-2012 14:57)

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

ddascher wrote:

I think it is interesting that, up to now, 253 users have viewed this thread and only 3 or 4 have made any comment at all.

Correct me if I am wrong but this makes me believe that most users are, in fact, not using Pianoteq as a single piano sound for their playing pleasure.

I believe this is true because I suggested that this is true in my case and was wondering if anyone is actually using it in this manner.   I would think that users who love the sound and use it as their piano sound would come to the defense of it, but I do not see it happening.

I like Pianoteq for a lot of reasons and I am not sorry I purchased it, but I do not find it quite ready for a stand-alone piano sound.

I started this thread to see if I was alone with this position.

It appears not.


Hello Don,

I am not here to represent the 250 people who viewed this thread to date and chose not to reply.  Rather, I speak to you as one person who is a fairly accomplished pianist who practices at home on Pianoteq through a good set of headphones, and enjoys playing on Pianoteq when guests are present.


I sincerely believe that Pianoteq is an instrument for my musical expression ... rather than an end in itself.  Maybe another way of putting it is this:  When a painter creates his artwork on canvas, the oil-based paint as it sits in a tube, is not the final product in itself.  The "raw" paint is only a somewhat wet medium which (in this example) that sits in a tube; it only exists as a potential medium for creating a work of fine art.  Once the oil paint has been applied to the canvas and is allowed to dry, exists as a finished work of visual art ... represents the expression of the artist.   Relatively few viewers of the finished work of art would think about the raw paint, itself.   Returning to Pianoteq, it sounds and behaves enough like a real piano to me, both in its musicality and final sound, that I am able to forget that I am playing a virtual piano, and concentrate on making a musical expression.  To my way of thinking, that is one of the finest compliments I am able to bestow on any virtual piano.


Cheers,

Joe

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (05-09-2012 08:18)

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

Note that this counter very likely doesn't count unique IP visits, but just counts how many times the thread has been viewed. So likely it's not been 250 people but less.


EDIT: Yes, it's exactly like that. It's been way less than 250 users. Every time anyone opens the thread (even several times in a row) counts as one thread view.

Last edited by EvilDragon (04-09-2012 15:18)
Hard work and guts!

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

EvilDragon wrote:

Note that this counter very likely doesn't count unique IP visits, but just counts how many times the thread has been viewed. So likely it's not been 250 people but less.


EDIT: Yes, it's exactly like that. It's been way less than 250 users. Every time anyone opens the thread (even several times in a row) counts as one thread view.


Absolutely, I totally understand.

However, even if it is 125 new viewers, or 100, that still leaves considerable viewers with very few stepping up to say they use Pianoteq as their software piano sound of choice.   

It is my feeling that those that do feel that way (like yourself) would inject some sort of comment indicating that they do love the sound of Pianoteq as a stand-alone sound and use if regularly for that purpose.

Now, understand ... I am not surprised by this.   It is my position, also.   

I do like Pianoteq as a product for the concept but the sound is not quite to my liking as of yet.

I do feel that an accomplished pianist, like yourself, can probably get a nicer sound for a piece of music simply because the overall musicality of the piece overrides the physical sound in that instance and this might explain your position.

I remain hopeful that future versions will overcome this (in my opinion) shortcoming because everything else is top shelf.

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

I'm using Pianoteq exclusively when I'm recording anything that needs a piano sound on my computer. I don't do live gigs currently, but in that case I don't think I would haul my laptop with me on stage, so I rely on my Kurzweil PC3K8 for everything.

Hard work and guts!

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

Hi all,

I must say that I am one of those who like the the general idea of PTQ - it's a brave project from which you can learn a lot about piano sound, physics and resonance. For that I am greatful. Having had PTQ for years and constantly following its development I have learned a lot about piano.
     Still at the moment PTQ isn't my first choise, if I play digital piano at home and certainly not on the gigs I do. For my playing style and to my preferences it's just too digital sounding, lacking some warmth and also punchy clear attack which I want to have. Still Pianoteq has developed a lot since its last version. But I must say that it's competitors (especially sampled and hybrid approaches) have developed maybe even more. When years ago I downloaded my first PTQ (demo) it sounded so realistic, but at that moment I was comparing it to my Roland RD500. Now when I evaluate it, I compare it to my Nord Piano which have well sampled Steinway, Yamaha and Bosendorfer and it also has some resonance modeling. To my preferences Nord (and especially its yamaha grand) is more usable and playable - I play mostly jazz and popular music which emphasizes rhythmical playing. Compared to my Nord, PTQ has longer and more natural decay but this isn't so important in my style compared to the attack part of the sound. And attack isn't the best part of PTQ in my opinion. Also all those resonance features are nice of course, but secondary to the very basic sound.

All this been said PTQ is my first and only software piano I use. It complements nicely my other pianos (acoustic Kawai and Nords) and give me nice alternative to them when I wanna different perspective to jamming or whatever.

Last edited by Ecaroh (05-09-2012 16:34)

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

For whatever it is worth, Pianoteq is the only piano I am using (real or software).  I don't spend much time adjusting the settings as I would rather be playing.  I use it to practice and learn classical pieces as a stand alone instrument.  Because it acts so much like a real piano, I very much enjoy using it.

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

I use Pianoteq with a Kurzweil MIDIBOARD as my recording piano. The recorded sound is infinitely better than recording my upright and the ability to edit the midi input in Logic. I'm very happy with it for this and also often use it when I'm learning or transcribing songs.

I have a Korg SP250 for playing out. I don't like the nuisance of bringing along the laptop and interface, so wouldn't use pianoteq unless the sound was really important. The sound on the SP250 is just adequate.

When I'm just practising, I do so on my old upright.

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

ddascher wrote:

However, even if it is 125 new viewers, or 100, that still leaves considerable viewers with very few stepping up to say they use Pianoteq as their software piano sound of choice.   

It is my feeling that those that do feel that way (like yourself) would inject some sort of comment indicating that they do love the sound of Pianoteq as a stand-alone sound and use if regularly for that purpose.

I've tried Garritan Authorized Steinway, Pianoteq, TruePianos and Ivory (and a couple of others that were so below average that I won't even mention them). Pianoteq is far and away my favorite one (whether or not that's what you mean by 'software piano sound of choice' I'm not sure). Now, this isn't purely because of the sound because I can't judge any software piano simply by the sound. I can't even judge real pianos simply by their sound. And even when I do listen to someone play a first class instrument (like, for instance, Barenboim playing a Beethoven sonata on a 9 foot concert grand) I can't even really say that I like or love the sound of that piano. I never listen for just sounds, I listen for the music. I'm not sure if I even hear the sheer physical sound quality of the instrument. What I mean by this is I never say things like "wow, that piano sounds incredible!".

So I can't evaluate Pianoteq simply on its sound or say that I do or don't love its sound. But I can tell you this: I love what Pianoteq does for me when I need to play a software instrument rather than a real one: it acts more like a real piano for me than any of the others I listed above.

Pianoteq sounds better to me than the Samick upright that I had before getting Pianoteq. It does not sound as good as the Boston 5 foot baby grand that I got after getting rid of the Samick. Pianoteq sounds better than some real instruments and not as good as others. But even though my Boston baby grand doesn't sound as good as the 6 foot Steinway I may get in the future, it doesn't mean I don't love the Boston because I do. And I also love Pianoteq.

I won't have access to my Boston for the next couple of years as I am overseas. When I want to play my keyboard that I will have over here, I will fire up Pianoteq first about 90% of the time. I'll play the Garritan and the Ivory for variety but not nearly as much as Pianoteq.

Caveat: I've never tried blending different virtual pianos before or combining a software virtual piano with a digital piano that has speakers. It may be possible for me to use my DAW and blend Pianoteq and Ivory or whatever. If I do that and I like it better than Pianoteq alone, I will let you know.

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

ddascher wrote:

I think it is interesting that, up to now, 253 users have viewed this thread and only 3 or 4 have made any comment at all.

Correct me if I am wrong but this makes me believe that most users are, in fact, not using Pianoteq as a single piano sound for their playing pleasure.

I believe this is true because I suggested that this is true in my case and was wondering if anyone is actually using it in this manner.   I would think that users who love the sound and use it as their piano sound would come to the defense of it, but I do not see it happening.

I like Pianoteq for a lot of reasons and I am not sorry I purchased it, but I do not find it quite ready for a stand-alone piano sound.

I started this thread to see if I was alone with this position.

It appears not.


Don:

Maybe we're just lazy.

My piano is a Roland digital and approaching seven years in age (I think).  I never particularly liked the sound - it sounds like a Roland.

When I play (which is becoming less frequent), I always use PT, and of course am using the latest full featured version.

Mostly I render classical piano midis (Beethoven, Chopin) using PT for recording onto CDs which I use frequently while driving.  My adult daughter is a Chopin fan, so I've rendered about a half dozen CDs for her.

Sometimes I even render some of my recorded midis for the same purpose, but I prefer listening to the music of others because I know what I sound like and I like others' sounds better.

I like the jazz stylings of Doug Mackenzie whose midis are available at:  http://www.bushgrafts.com/jazz/midi.htm

If I played in public for financial reasons, I'd likely use a keyboard and PT - simply because it's waaay better than virtually any public piano and waaay better than any onboard digital piano sound.

Glenn

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

Glenn NK wrote:

I like the jazz stylings of Doug Mackenzie whose midis are available at:  http://www.bushgrafts.com/jazz/midi.htm

.

So maybe you'd be interested in the post I'm just making in the "Using Pianoteq with Orchestral Libraries" thread. Could help analyse those stylings', put them right in your own hands, pretty effortlessly.

ADDED: and to reply within this thread, after about a year of havering, I've sprung for a Kawai ES7. It hasn't got aftertouch, hasn't got Kawai's latest action, its repetition is probably a gesture (it's mentioned mildly as 'improved', while if it WAS improved the brochure would shout about it). What's it got? 256 polyphony.

And paramountly, portability.

For the rest of the setup, got a pair Sennheiser HD 600s, an FiiO amp to drive them, and an FiiO E17 DAC which docks in  it, to bypass my laptop's soundcard.

Throw in a book of Chopin nocturnes and I can expect plenty frustrations, and some success by my measure, this summer. Bit of Brahms too.

But the item at the heart of the show will be Pianoteq no question. Chief of all.

Last edited by custral (15-09-2012 21:16)

Re: Request for Pianoteq usage

ddascher wrote:

I think it is interesting that, up to now, 253 users have viewed this thread and only 3 or 4 have made any comment at all.

Correct me if I am wrong but this makes me believe that most users are, in fact, not using Pianoteq as a single piano sound for their playing pleasure.

I believe this is true because I suggested that this is true in my case and was wondering if anyone is actually using it in this manner.   I would think that users who love the sound and use it as their piano sound would come to the defense of it, but I do not see it happening.

I like Pianoteq for a lot of reasons and I am not sorry I purchased it, but I do not find it quite ready for a stand-alone piano sound.

I started this thread to see if I was alone with this position.

It appears not.

Hi !

I usually dont post much on forums but rather read and follow interesting threads, maybe this applies too many of the people?

I use pianoteq for both practice and for recording, but I have a tendency not to talk to much about it  - you see when I make recordings I usually dont want people to know that I made the recording in my computer,

It is my belief that the end-listener usually thinks (and wants to think) that a classical recording is made on a grand piano in a nice concert hall or church rather then In my smalll studio on a computer eating chocolates and drinking coffe.

Because of this: I never talk much about my setup, and I try to stay a bit anonymous here on the forum, not posting my music and soforth. Perhaps more users here are like me ?

I