Topic by JohnT

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Topic: Avantgrand N1 with Pianoteq?

I play classical music and my aim is to get the best instrument I can to practice (mainly with headphones) in such away that I can transfer what I learn easily to acoustic grand pianos.

I realise there are a few digital pianos with good actions (Kawai MP10/Roland FP-7F/Numa Nero etc) but one that stands out in terms of having an actual grand piano action is the Avantgrand N1 ( or N2/N3 but the action is the same).

Does anyone here have any experience of using an Avantgrand with Pianoteq? In particular the Avantgrand seems to measure both  key and hammer velocity so I'm wondering how this is translated into a Midi signal for Pianoteq to use.

Any comments would be very welcome.

Thanks
John

Reply by Sundance_k1d

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Re: Avantgrand N1 with Pianoteq?

Hi John.

Ive looked around for you for some in-depth technicals specs of the Avantgrands midi system but could not find anything more in-depth then that it has midi in/out which was not much info.

Being as new as it is Im pretty sure though that it sends midi 1-127 seamless. Some pianos send midi have a harder "midi-dynamics" then others meaning that you have to hit the key very hard to send 127. On the contrary, other pianos reaches the 127 alot easier.

No matter what you use though, you will adjust pianoteq to fit the piano so-to-speak. Either by adjusting the velocity settings, or by adjusting the dynamics in Pianoteq you will surely find your own preset with a little tweaking. This is only done once then aftherwise you can naturally load your settings.

Pianoteq also has an automated function with version 4 which helps the player adjust these settings by analysing incoming midi signals from any given piano/midi controller.

I use an Roland fp5 which Ive stuck with for many years for its greath action. With pianoteq I usually set the dynamics a bit higher then the regular presets and I adjust the velocity curve to make the PPP start at around midi 10-15 to simulate the fact that a regular piano does not give sound if pressed too gently.

If I were to buy a new 88 controller for use with pianoteq today I would strongly suggest looking into the midi masterkeyboards say at Thomann if youre located in europe. Some of the bit more expensive masterkeyboards are said to have excellent action but as they lack internal sounds and speakers they are very much less priced then say Avantgard or a Roland Fp 7. Im thinking you could save alot of money this way In case you can live without the fact that the piano wont make any sounds of its own without the aid of a computer.

Hope Ive said something usefull... I rarely do though

Reply by JohnT

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Re: Avantgrand N1 with Pianoteq?

Thanks that is helpful!

I'm optimistic that the Avantgrands should send the full range of Midi values (certainly my old Yamaha DP manages this well) but just curious how this is achieved: I really want to know if it seems realistic for the player in its midi output.

My main reason for using Pianoteq is because as a player it "feels" likes a real piano (particularly the realistic effects of pedalling are way beyond anything I've found on a sample based DP)

I suppose my main reason for considering the Avantgrand (N1) is that I would love a grand piano but can't have one for the next few years at least.

Having played on a lot of acoustic uprights/grands over the years I have convinced myself that I really prefer a true grand piano action -- so the alternatives seem to be Avantgrand or DIY old grand piano action + optical sensors (in both cases with Pianoteq), but the latter project sounds like a huge amount of work with uncertain outcomes.

I know that I could have a great wooden keyboard action for less than half the price of the N1 but I can't help thinking that the N1+Pianoteq might just be the dream combination for a classical player who doesn't need portability but just wants a grand piano to play at night!

Reply by skip

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Re: Avantgrand N1 with Pianoteq?

JohnT wrote:

In particular the Avantgrand seems to measure both  key and hammer velocity so I'm wondering how this is translated into a Midi signal for Pianoteq to use.

My understanding is that it uses sensors on the keys for the dampers (i.e to determine when to terminate the notes), whilst it measures the hammer speed to determine the hammer velocity, and presumably also for the timing of the beginning of the notes.  This seems to be very authentic, because of course on a real grand piano the dampers are controlled directly by the keys, whilst the hammers detach and are free to bounce off the strings.  The MIDI data will just be standard though.

It also simulates double-escapement - notes can be repeated for relatively small key returns, just like on a real grand piano. (this feature is also available on some cheaper digital pianos though)  On Yamaha Clavinovas, the double-escapement repeats produce multiple MIDI Note-On events in a row, until the key is lifted fully, upon which a string of consecutive Note-Offs is produced, the number of which matches the number of Note-Ons.  I presume the Avantgrand would be the same.  Pianoteq seems to behave ok when fed such a MIDI sequence.

Greg.

Last edited by skip (05-09-2012 13:33)

Reply by JohnT

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Re: Avantgrand N1 with Pianoteq?

Thanks, that's very helpful: and sounds ideal in terms of capturing the mechanism of an acoustic grand piano.

I wasn't aware of the ability to send multiple key on events in the Clavinovas, so it is good to know that Pianoteq can deal with these correctly.

But when you say the AG "simulates" the double escapement, my understanding is that it contains a double escapement action with a repetition lever (this is part of a grand piano action) so it doesn't need to simulate this -- although it obviously needs to use the hammer velocity sensors correctly to produce fast repeated notes without fully releasing the key. (See Wikipedia diagram label (9) at foot of page .)

I think I need to actually try an Avantgrand with my laptop (and Pianoteq) just to see exactly how they work together.  (But I know the shop assistant will wonder why on earth I would want the AG as a Midi controller....)

Reply by skip

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Re: Avantgrand N1 with Pianoteq?

John,
I agree. I am used to talking about standard digital pianos, that of course do not have a real mechanical double-escapement. For example, my Casio PX-330 "simulates" double-escapement, because it does indeed allow note repeats for relatively shallow key returns, and it transmits the consecutive Note-On events, just like the Clavinovas do. However, of course it doesn't actually have a double-escapement mechanism.  Note that only the GH3/NW action Clavinovas have this feature (which I think is most of them, now, though)  Roland's PHAIII action (and some variants) action has this too, and Kawai has just released this type of action for the first time in their ES7.

Greg.