Topic: Proposed Community Project -- Create FXP that fits in Mix

Hello Philippe and All Other PianoTechies,

For the longest time, I have been reading users’ complaints about the way that Pianoteq does not seem to work in a live gig scenario, and that most (if not all) people seem to have trouble making it fit in a mix.

An idea came to me, a few nights ago, when I was ripping the audio from a pop dvd (Skillet: Awake and Alive) in order to transcribe the piano part, by ear, for one of my students.  I noticed that the audio’s dynamic range was essentially unity, i.e., little to no discernible difference in loudness.  It then occurred to me that Elton John’s acoustic Yamaha piano is played with the lid closed, and is miked from within the piano’s case – again, the dynamic range of his recorded instrument was essentially one loudness.

Could it be???  Could it be, that even 30dB of dynamic is too extreme to fit into a mix, either live or recorded?

To that end, I propose that this forum works together in a community experiment to derive an .fxp that DOES fit into a pop mix and/or works satisfactorily in a live gig!  I have created an .fxp that serves as a “starting point” for forum members to try, critique, and modify … with the intent that we collectively create a preset that works well in a pop mix or a live playing environment.

My starting .fxp is entitled D4-2012-06-01-jcfelice88keys-01.  This translates to a D4 submitted on today’s date, namely, year 2012, month of June, first day, member’s name, first attempt.  I would encourage you to download this fxp, and make any changes that you personally feel makes it a better fxp for a pop mix environment.  Simply rename it as D4-2012-06-XX (where xx = day of the month)- your name-your sequence number.

My first submittal begins with D4 Jazz BA, and involves setting the dynamic range to its minimum value, and resetting the velocity.  When you listen to it, you will notice that only the brightness changes, and the volume remains quite constant!

Please feel free to modify hammer hardnesses, or perhaps nudge the dynamic range up to, say a whole 6dB(!), and do whatever you think will make the sound the way you would like to hear in a live or pop recording mix.

This is essentially the way a beta group works!, except that the D4 model is already set up;  we are collectively working to create a preset (or set of presets) that may eventually be called Pop Mix.


Let’s see where this work takes us!



Cheers,

Joe

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (02-06-2012 03:43)

Re: Proposed Community Project -- Create FXP that fits in Mix

Joe,
Just FWIW, it seems that we may not be actually hearing much of the acoustic sound from Elton's Yamaha Disklavier.  Please read this post and perhaps peruse the rest of that thread as well. The author appears to have some very detailed inside knowledge!

That said, I don't think this detracts from your idea that severely limiting the dynamic range may be important for some mixes.

Greg.

Re: Proposed Community Project -- Create FXP that fits in Mix

Here's a tidbit of info about Elton's old Steinway sound:
From this Northern Sounds post:

From The Mixing Engineer's Handbook by Bobby Owsinski:

If you like the early Elton John piano sound, put the piano into two LA-2As or similar compressors and compress the signal at least 10dB. Then put the output into two Pultecs or similar equalizers. Push 14kHz all the way up and set 100Hz to about 5. The effect should be a shimmering sound. The chords hold and seem to chorus.

Greg.

Last edited by skip (03-06-2012 05:04)

Re: Proposed Community Project -- Create FXP that fits in Mix

jcfelice88keys wrote:

It then occurred to me that Elton John’s acoustic Yamaha piano is played with the lid closed, and is miked from within the piano’s case – again, the dynamic range of his recorded instrument was essentially one loudness.

Cheers,

Joe

You might want to try setting the 'Dynamics' slider all the way to the left '1dB'. Located in the 'Output' section.

Re: Proposed Community Project -- Create FXP that fits in Mix

DonSmith wrote:

You might want to try setting the 'Dynamics' slider all the way to the left '1dB'. Located in the 'Output' section.

Hello Don,

Thanks for the insight of sliding the Dynamics fully to the left @ 1dB.  In fact, that is exactly what I did in my starting fxp.  Have you tried it?  You will note that doing so essentially keeps the volume constant, and acts as a great filter for highlighting (or suppressing) the highest overtones.

Cheers,

Joe

Re: Proposed Community Project -- Create FXP that fits in Mix

Hi

I found this old theme i had on my Ensoniq SQ80 sequenser.
Tried to remake it on the computer with Pianoteq as piano allso playing a little piano solo part later in the "song"

The Piano sound i can get now with Pianoteq 4 is the sound i have longed after.
I adjusted a little on one of the D4 presets and used a vst reverb instead (to have the same reverb on all instruments)
I think it fits well in the mix thanks to the new improved sound (attack) in vers. 4 and i really like the more organic sound like from a real instrument. We can now get a clear sound without harshness... really wonderfull

It's very unfinished but just for the sound of it :-)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24081154/The%20Drive.mp3

Re: Proposed Community Project -- Create FXP that fits in Mix

Hi,

My main use with digital piano is a live stage use in a band, so I'd like to share some of my thoughts here. Situation is very different from the one you have in your home studio for example. On live stage piano is played loud, which amplifies all the frequencies to an extent that is certainly not sounding acoustic. So maybe there's some adaptation needed how much piano needs bottom for example. With too much bass, you are on the bass players property and muddying the overal sound. I've noticed that "home players" prefer very wide piano sound with wide frequencies palette. I'd say that this is something you might hear when you sit in front of an acoustic grand. Still I think that this is not a piano sound from which you get credit from mixing engineer. He'll have trouble with finding a way to fit you in the band mix and sound powerful without taking too much musical space. I had Roland pianos for years, and they sounded quite ok when playing solo at home but I allways had trouble on stage and also when trying to put them into recorded mix. Then when I tried to correct the sound with EQ it became unnatural. So nowadays, as a starting point, I am searching a piano which works well on stage naturally and as with as little as possible EQ:ing. While not being perfect, I am very happy with my Nord Piano and I've also got much credit from sound engineers as well. My piano sound is something that they normally don't need to do a lot or anything with it. It simply fits in the mix nicely. So what's the secret? IMO it's well recorded and thought for a live player. It's not too wide. I had quite resently a change to listen my Nord againts Yamaha's S70SX (in same space from same sound system with same volume). To my ears Nord was a clear winner; Yamaha sounded unnaturally wide and muddy, Nord sounded clear and natural. Remember that we are listening to a big PA system with subwoofers. Also, and this is favourite subject here on PTQ forum, Nord has a very clear punchy attack which will cut trough in all acoustic situations. What is its one weakness is that it sometimes has too much dynamics and this takes us back to Joe's first post and to his idea. When playing rock I might sometimes want to narrow my Nords dynamic range (and I have asked this feature from Clavia many times...). Fortunately Nord has a compressor, so you can make this kind of rock pianos quite easily. Still my main point is that dynamics does not play the major role when we search for a perfect piano on stage. It's more about general sound characteristics (especially wideness vs. narrowness and attack part of the sound).

IMO to be real challenger here, PTQ needs a careful study of close recorded piano sound and especially attack part.

Re: Proposed Community Project -- Create FXP that fits in Mix

Have a look at the Effects section, where one Preset is Compress (or?). It gives access (via a set of sub-presets - one of which is 'Squashed' - which MIGHT serve as effect-models) to a range of durations for Attack (ranging from glue-in-the-hammers to loose felt), has a Mix slider (I presume mix-ratio of altered /  unaltered), Release, plus an AB toggle between your setting and None. There's also a Reverb side-setting which you can in effect turn off.

And if I may, I'd like to quote your post in the Using Pianoteq with Orchestral Libraries thread?

There's plenty of overlap between topics, at least as you state them, it seems to me.

Last edited by custral (11-06-2012 10:17)