falling in love ... with a virtual orchestra

For better orchestral libraries that are MUCH more realistic than Miroslav, check out LASS, Cinematic Strings 2, VSL.

Options, articulations and better sound, imyself... Options, articulations and better sound!

Can you post a mp3 example of the most advanced virtual orchestra?

Dragon, have you had any experience with Notion, per the other thread? It uses samples from the London Symphony Orchestra and, now, with Notion3, close-mic'ed versions. It now loads vsit's, such as the vsti version of Pianoteq, too.

True of course, but having said that, few virtual orchestra pieces sound better than these, to my ears:
Andy Blaney / "The Night Before Christmas Eve" : http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws....masEve.mp3 (a truly masterful piece, in every respect)
Andy Blaney / "Anitra's Dance" : http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws....eDance.mp3
Colin O'Malley / "Raise The Atocha" http://spitfire-webassets.s3.amazonaws....cha(2).mp3
(These are all done with the Spitfire Audio libraries).

Not only do all the orchestral sections sounds pretty believable in these pieces, but even more impressive: the instruments and sections all blend together into a very natural sounding whole that also has very convincing depth, clarity and dynamics (three areas of production where most other mock-ups usually fail completely). Quite amazing, these three, I think.

_

Interesting discussion here
imyself, I had the same impressions years ago when I needed a inexpensive library and I had to decide among Miro and Garritan. I went for Miro for the same reasons you mentioned After a while I bought Garritan too to complete the 'cheap' arsenal that I still use. The BIG advantage of these libraries is that they sound decent without a big effort from the player.
In studios where I work I use to find VSL and EQWSL and the difference is huge but, especially with VSL, you have to learn how to use it or it will sound worse than Garritan or Miro..
Then it depends on the mockup you usually work for; listening to demos Spitfire, Sam and Lass are bestter suited for film scoring while VSL and others are better for classical work.
There is another distinction to do: Albion and Simphobia (Spitfire and projct Sam respectively) gives 'blocks' of orchestra prerecorded (like octaves, runs, tutti, and alike) and this gives much better naturality to the ensemble and helps the less skilled orchestral arranger; is like the difference between a sampled piano and the natural modeled resonances of pianoteq.
On january I discovered Kirk Hunter libraries (because I won them ) and for classic orchestral work they seems very good to me; also the expression in solo instruments is very good in my opinion.
Basically there is a lot of material to work with and the choice has a lot of variables: skills, budget, genre, personal taste etc..
We also have the aid of reverbs, EQs, compressors and alike to move a sound from classical to cinematic but with decent libraries I think that at least 70% of the result is due to musician skills.

Here is some example of my work if curious:

Here I used Eastwest Silver (sorry for low quality and voiceovers..):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlMXNdRmfyM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cAch-jJWgE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdWnuVwTVRI

and this is a test I did with Kirk Hunter strings:

http://soundcloud.com/edc-4/mozart-k546-adagio

I just finished the new Müller commercial using KH orchestra and pianoteq for melody but I still can't find it on youtube, it went onair one week ago

After all this I think Miroslav is still inspiring and, for instance, it has been used in the single I did from Campari commercial..
The last consideration is that everything inspire you the most (be it cheap or super expensive if you can afford it) is the right tool for you. At the end the best result is still obtained with a real orchestra so far

EDIT: the Muller commercial is now on youtube. I put the link in the 'Music creation' forum

ahah if I knew that before I could have written two or three lines in total

ah ok, happy for this

I own notion3 sle for Miroslav but honestly I never use it.. The problem is that I usually write on paper or piano and than I play all orchestral parts putting the most of expression with 'live' playing.
For people writing in step mode and needing an interactive complex score is perfect; you can also record in realtime but as far as I know you must do different overdub for pitch, expression and the like.
From my limited experience I can say that playback is accurate and the complete version let you easily use your preferred libraries and set your playback rules for all articulations and styles. With the XML import/export option you can exchange files with other scoring software like Finale or Sibelius. The mixer is very intuitive and powerful too. There are a lot of useful preset also (sring quartet, piano and violin, full orchestra..); starting from them you start with staves in the correct order and the right clef for every stave.
I don't know about the internal samples because I have the SLE edition..
Everytime I ask myself the reason why I own it, I give it a run and I'm tempted to upgrade to the full version; then I realize that is not useful for me actually but I'm sure one day I'll find the time to learn and enjoy it

mmh you're tempting me.. the only problem is to check if they permit license transfer.. anyway I'm moving the discussion to pm

I use CS2, Cinebrass and Albion, but has anyone have WIVI Brass, and WIVI Woodwinds? They are sample modeled. I have them and I have mixed feelings about them. In some contexts they sound great, and you can tweak ANY parameter which helps a lot. Good for solo instrument (you can make your own custom articulations, rip, lines, falls, etc..) Other contexts they aren't quite there yet.

I like the idea of sample molding, or modeling. So far in my experience PianoTEQ is the best of the molding crowd. I don't like Ivory or any of the other piano sample libs, except 8DIO's 1928. That's a different animal, but it has a specific use and that's what makes it so cool.

I'd like to hear some of you try to copy that piano and make a FXP. Now that would be awesome!

Well.. like I said, in some contexts I like them. They do sound good, and can only get better. But, despite the reviews, I have to disagree about them sounding "better" than recent sample libs. I recently purchased Project SAM's Orchestral Brass Classic, and while not as flexible as WIVI - with sample libraries you're kinda stuck with the basic recording of the sample - when I used them in something I'm producing right now, the ProjectSAM horns just sounded so warm and utterly convincing,... very organic and sat in the mix and sounded very real. I come from a contrapuntal background and don't need to rely on "sample fx" to get things done, but that aside, modern sample libs (like LASS, Cinematic String 2, Cinebrass, etc..) have taken the realism, and usability of sample based sounds to a new level (although they are memory and cpu HOGS)! I do like and use WIVI quite a bit, but even they themselves said they are several years away from being able to do the same thing with strings. I think that says something about sample modeling in general. You know how sometimes with PianoTEQ you'll play one of the instruments, with one of the presets and you're like, "Eh, not that good". But others, are like "WOW, best piano ever!" That's kinda the WIVI experience.

It's kinda hard to explain. Again, it's context. I could compose a wind quintet and use WIVI for my sounds and I know I would get a great result. Maybe even completely fool most people. Sometimes that's hard to do with samples because the way they are recorded. But sometimes samples really do it for me where WIVI sounds weak and shrill. Sometimes they do sound like an organ, or "synthy". That's what I mean by. "not quite there yet". I guess I'm saying they seem to, at this point to have a limited context, in that I have not been able to get WIVI to sound great in all situations. If you're using a wind controller you'll get MUCH better results with WIVI. I've heard some great trumpet sounds come from WIVI but they were done with a wind controller. Maybe I just need to use WIVI better.

Sorry for the long review. Here's an idea. If you buy the cheap WIVI Band you'll get the same basic sounds. Actually WIVI band sounds really good, and it's only $69, or something like that. Try that out and you'll have a good idea how the whole WIVI product sounds. Hope that helped.

Hey, thanks for the clarification.  I need to check out some of the newer versions of all the competing software I guess. 

Does anyone have any experience with Synful Orchestra?  Although not totally convincing reproductions, I find that the instruments sound very expressive, like a human is sitting inside a recording booth bowing or plucking the strings, or blowing through the mouthpiece of a horn or clarinet.  I was a little mistaken earlier calling it physically modeled - it is actually phrase modeled.  The stuff between the notes/transitions is what shines in this software.

Is this product even supported anymore? - looks a little dated on the website (2009 last entry).

I omitted to say: possessing Komplete 6, therefore, Kontakt 4, the classical instruments (vsl) I found there are more than enough to complete Miroslav.

PS: and if necessary, to swell the sound: I have also Garitan PO (never use because very average)

Hey, thanks for posting the audio files.  Nice arrangements by the way. 

I guess I hear what you mean with the WIVI sometimes not being quite there yet.  When the tone is held out, it sounds great, but from note-to-note attacks and phrasing I can tell it is a software orchestra.  I wonder if you edited all the articulations to no end (which would be very time consuming), would it be more convincing?  Would it even be worth it?

This is where Synful Orchestra shines - the note-to-note transitions and attacks are very 'human-like'.  Check out the solo and group french Horn examples on Synful's website:
http://www.synful.com/

It's a shame this software appears abandoned, because I believe the development team was really on to something here. 

I think that the attacks and phrasing are very good, perhaps the best that I've heard from note-to-note.  The held out tone is not as good as WIVI/sampled libraries though.  Oh well, once again, there is no perfect software solution. 

Yeah I think it all boils down to MIDI editing and articulation editing for that final boost of realism.

I'm glad you checked out Synful - it blew me away too, and then some examples left me wondering like you.  I'm surprised that this older product was able to get that amount of control out of winds and strings.  The plucked Double Bass and effect-bowings are awesome - I could see this used in a vintage jazz setting.

The thing they got absolutely spot-on is the transitions between notes in all instruments.  Those are really convincing.  Too bad that there doesn't seem to be any fresh development with this product.  Maybe they ran out of funding or time, or both.

Thanks again for the examples and your input.

-Erich