Does anyone know how to improve the black keys on this scala file?
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.php
There is some about it on the white keys that I like, but the black keys sound warped.
Does anyone know how to improve the black keys on this scala file?
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.phpThere is some about it on the white keys that I like, but the black keys sound warped.
You probably know this already, or can quickly get to it.
In spread sheet format it compares to Equal temperament as follows
Equal Piano7
1.0594630944 1.0546875
1.1224620483 1.125
1.189207115 1.1666666667
1.2599210499 1.25
1.3348398542 1.3333333333
1.4142135624 1.40625
1.4983070769 1.5
1.587401052 1.5555555556
1.6817928305 1.6875
1.7817974363 1.75
1.8877486254 1.875
2 2
Here is where my lack of understanding of scala files REALLY shows;
I don't know where the scale is assumed to start, i.e. there is no "Concert A" 440 Hz frequency
or middle C.
In the absence of anything else an engineer or physicist might be tempted to assume that it starts at 1 Hz.
Perhaps that is the point ?
i.e. whatever arbitrary frequency you decide on for any moment, these are the factors for the notes above it ?
Until one decides where the scale starts the "white notes" and "black notes" can't be found.
On second thoughts; since you identify the "black notes" as the ones you want to tweak, those are probably the 1, 3, 6, 8, 10 or C#, D#, F#, G#, A#
8, 10 and 3 are the most flat when compared to equal, only 9 is sharp, again compared to equal.
I don't know what you want to do to them, e.g. bring them closer to equal or change their individual tone(s) ?
I also don't know how PTQ processes those changes, i.e. what priorities your scale changes have over any stretching, whether it just duplicates note tuning changes to every octave, etc.
I have MUCH reading to do on this - or perhaps I will (& SHOULD) revert to my pre-set bunny mood and just PLAY/(practice).
I'm a complete novice who have relied on scala files that have been created by others. I thought of learning about it, but never really got going. I couldn't mentally get into it. I think I'd need a 'what-you-see-is-what-you-get' sort of software, where you could just drag sliders and then save the file.
Maybe now is the time to learn.
[...]
Here is where my lack of understanding of scala files REALLY shows;
I don't know where the scale is assumed to start, i.e. there is no "Concert A" 440 Hz frequency
or middle C.
In the absence of anything else an engineer or physicist might be tempted to assume that it starts at 1 Hz.Perhaps that is the point ?
i.e. whatever arbitrary frequency you decide on for any moment, these are the factors for the notes above it ?
Until one decides where the scale starts the "white notes" and "black notes" can't be found.On second thoughts; since you identify the "black notes" as the ones you want to tweak, those are probably the 1, 3, 6, 8, 10 or C#, D#, F#, G#, A#
8, 10 and 3 are the most flat when compared to equal, only 9 is sharp, again compared to equal.I don't know what you want to do to them, e.g. bring them closer to equal or change their individual tone(s) ?
I also don't know how PTQ processes those changes, i.e. what priorities your scale changes have over any stretching, whether it just duplicates note tuning changes to every octave, etc.I have MUCH reading to do on this - or perhaps I will (& SHOULD) revert to my pre-set bunny mood and just PLAY/(practice).
tractor_music, this may help you:
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic.php?pid=69#p69
There are also other posts that you can find by searching the forum with "scala".
Going to that thread, and following the link off to Scala's home Page, you find a setup, which involves first installing a Graphic Runtime (for Windows, the Mac version is apparently difficult) called GTK+. OK, so I did all this (only to find I'd forgotten installing GTK+ beforehand, so I left it as-was).
So running Scala (without reading the recommended README) suggested running the Tutorial. I did, and it's REALLY STIFF. However at its 3rd example it spat out -
Now let's create a Pythagorean scale:
PYTHAGOREAN
scale size: 12
octave: 2/1
degree of fifth: 0 (this is default and it means don't care)
fifth: 3/2
number of fifths downwards: 3 (this means going down to F Bb Eb)SHOW
|
0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime
1: 2187/2048 113.685 apotome
2: 9/8 203.910 major whole tone
3: 32/27 294.135 Pythagorean minor third
4: 81/64 407.820 Pythagorean major third
5: 4/3 498.045 perfect fourth
6: 729/512 611.730 Pythagorean tritone
7: 3/2 701.955 perfect fifth
8: 6561/4096 815.640 Pythagorean augmented fifth
9: 27/16 905.865 Pythagorean major sixth
10: 16/9 996.090 Pythagorean minor seventh
11: 243/128 1109.775 Pythagorean major seventh
12: 2/1 1200.000 octave
- and you can see that the simpler ratios correspond to the "white notes" in our problem. The "black notes" ratios do not.. Thus to the extent that 'Pythagorean' white notes have simpler ratios, plus correspond identically to those of our problem, we now know something. And we know something else : the "black notes" in our problem aren't pythagorean. There's some chance that alone would make them sound 'off''.
For example if the semitone above the fifth is " 1.587401052 1.5555555556" and we take the tute's version for "Pythagorean augmented fifth", 6561/4096 = 1.601806641 , it equals neither the equal temperament version nor the other (forget the header). Now the ET method was chosen to have all semitones equally out-of-tune, so it SHOULD sound pleasant enough (and besides, we're very used to it). Comparing with the Pythagorean Aug Fifth. it's not so different, if somewhat sharp. But the 1.555555555... version is much more markedly flat. It SHOULD sound wonkier than the ET version, it's maybe 3 times flatter than the Pythagorean is sharp.
And so perhaps replacing the "black notes" with what the tutorial so fortuitously spat out would fix the problem in a fingersnap.
If it does, well and good. But it's all without insight. Reading required.... possibly of Scala's README, for starters.
ADDED : sorry, forgot to mention when I was compariing the tute to our problem, I was working out the tute ratios at a calculator. Not in my head!
Going to that thread, and following the link off to Scala's home Page, you find a setup, which involves first installing a Graphic Runtime (for Windows, the Mac version is apparently difficult) called GTK+. OK, so I did all this (only to find I'd forgotten installing GTK+ beforehand, so I left it as-was).
So running Scala (without reading the recommended README) suggested running the Tutorial. I did, and it's REALLY STIFF. However at its 3rd example it spat out -
Scala wrote:Now let's create a Pythagorean scale:
PYTHAGOREAN
scale size: 12
octave: 2/1
degree of fifth: 0 (this is default and it means don't care)
fifth: 3/2
number of fifths downwards: 3 (this means going down to F Bb Eb)SHOW
|
0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime
1: 2187/2048 113.685 apotome
2: 9/8 203.910 major whole tone
3: 32/27 294.135 Pythagorean minor third
4: 81/64 407.820 Pythagorean major third
5: 4/3 498.045 perfect fourth
6: 729/512 611.730 Pythagorean tritone
7: 3/2 701.955 perfect fifth
8: 6561/4096 815.640 Pythagorean augmented fifth
9: 27/16 905.865 Pythagorean major sixth
10: 16/9 996.090 Pythagorean minor seventh
11: 243/128 1109.775 Pythagorean major seventh
12: 2/1 1200.000 octave
I've loaded the software from the Scala website:
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/index.html
Downloaded this Scala software:
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/software/Scala_Setup.exe
These are the settings it returned for piano7:
Welcome to Scala.
Type "@tutorial" to view the tutorial.
Edit startup.cmd to configure initial settings.
|
Scala version 2.28o Copyright E.F. Op de Coul, the Netherlands, 2010
|
Enhanced piano 7-limit
|
0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime
1: 135/128 92.179 major chroma, major limma
2: 9/8 203.910 major whole tone
3: 7/6 266.871 septimal minor third
4: 5/4 386.314 major third
5: 4/3 498.045 perfect fourth
6: 45/32 590.224 diatonic tritone
7: 3/2 701.955 perfect fifth
8: 14/9 764.916 septimal minor sixth
9: 27/16 905.865 Pythagorean major sixth
10: 7/4 968.826 harmonic seventh
11: 15/8 1088.269 classic major seventh
12: 2/1 1200.000 octave
I'll have to familiarise myself with this software to see what could be achieved. There's a lot of menus here, it looks promising. I thought it would be like a simple text edit programme, a bit like doing html in Note Pad.
Thanks Philippe,
This is interesting and I have to admit it is the first time I have visited alternate scales/tunings since getting onto keyboard instruments.
I had the understanding on strings that guitars are tuned in 4ths and 5ths, which leads to them sounding better in some keys than in others - and that tuning by harmonics can change the keys in which they sound better.
My move to keyboards brought an assumption of equal temperament and I have been so busy with learning to play that I haven't revisited scales and tunings since.
I accepted 2^(1/12) = 1.059463094 as being the increment between frequencies and that was all I wanted to know.
I downloaded and installed scala, which is indeed feature packed.
Last night I got myself into a tangle by hooking its midi out to pianoteq via LoopBe and expecting to hear the different scales when playing the scala midi keyboard.
Of course I had neglected to save what I was working with as a scala file and bring that into Pianoteq :-D
I am now in fear of wanting PTQ PRO - or PTQ PRO PLUS, or the SDK, but I know those aren't available (yet) :-D
I open my Scala, and go to Help/About. It says I'm running V 2.32k, and tells me the install directory is C:\\Program Files\Scala 22\. I go there and find just 2 .SCL files. Open With Scala does nothing except make the (what I guess is the Command File) report (in red, along what may be the Status Bar for the App) "This Is Not A Scala File" (though it clearly is). Meantime a doubleclick on say ptolemy.scl gets it up in Notepad thus :
! ptolemy.scl
!
Intense Diatonic Syntonon, also Zarlino's scale
7
!
9/8
5/4
4/3
3/2
5/3
15/8
2/1
Turning to the supposed Command Line page, and pressing the Edit button brings up a page with a 1/1 ratio, a frequency (261 and change), and a descriptor (something about Unison). So reading ptolemy.scl we see there are 7 ratios, which might complete the octave above 261... , the ratio series ending in 2/1 as it does.
And indeed a Copy of solely the ratios-column from Notepad then a Rightclick-Paste into Edit brings about a display in it of the full kaboodle :- columns for scale degree, "pitch" (ie ratio), "cents", "interval" (more ratios), "E12" (degrees as alpha), "E53" (fussy equivalents), frequency & descriptor-text. Clicks on the headings above produce the familiar Windows' ordering-inversal result.
I am sure I at first could Copy this output to clipboard, but not any longer. Copy though present in the Rightclick popup is now ghosted. No use getting bothered about this, the Popup does offer many other options, functions presently obscure.
Of course, if only that Copy COULD be un-ghosted, it'd make this Edit window far more useful. As it now stands, individual entries in individual columns CAN be CTRL-C copied, so there's a copy-routine that does 'fly', but you flap a lot.
Anyway, returning to Help/About, I took its offered link to the Scale Archive, figuring it'd be current. Seems a good place for it would be a folder under Program Files\Scala22.
ADDED: Drag and Drop into Edit does exactly the same as above, plus adds the SCL file's text-above-the-"!" into Edit's Description Bar.
MORE: If you Drag an SCL file into Edit, then hit Edit's Apply button, when you press Scala's Show button, yo get this -
0: 1/1 0.000 unison, perfect prime
1: 9/8 203.910 major whole tone
2: 5/4 386.314 major third
3: 4/3 498.045 perfect fourth
4: 3/2 701.955 perfect fifth
5: 5/3 884.359 major sixth, BP sixth
6: 15/8 1088.269 classic major seventh
7: 2/1 1200.000 octave
- that is, get Edit's Degree, Interval, Cents, and Descriptor columns. Frequency would have been nice. Anyway, From Scala you CAN copy to Clipboard (even though a Rightclick Popup shows Copy ghosted). What's more, if you click Scala's Opts button, in the popup, the Output Tab's rightmost-top button ('Change', meaning change frequency) lets you change the base frequency of the octave.
Which makes the failure of Scala's Show button to show Frequency twice the pity.A workpast is to multiply the Interval of a degree by the base frequency. But surely an in-Scala option or method would be better.
LATER: using the Scala Menustrip's View command, there's a Show by Intervals and a Show by Frequencies command available.
Plus a Show command-with-arrow, that produces a dropdown including Show Frequencies on a Single Line, which does exactly that.
So, between a Copy/Paste-to-elsewhere of the Show command's output, then a Copy from that line of frequencies, one can kludge up a table including freqs. Less than ideal, but not impossible to entertain, if you gotta include frequencies in your table.