A Story, then Keyboards - Fatar, CME, et all

Hello Mark,

thanks for sharing your story. It is interesting that even a seasoned Steinway user would seem to get along with pianoteq.

I cannot tell you anything about the models you mentioned, but my experience is at least related.

I have a Yamaha P-80 (discontinued, as mentioned by Doug) for live gigs (this is absolutely built like a tank and totally reliable) and a Fatar / Studiologic 880 "pro" at home. Fatar should have omitted the "pro" tag since this thing is rather rickety and really hasn't good velocity response. It somehow works, but I am looking for something better.

The P-80 has great dynamics and a sturdy construction, very precise, but quite a hard key bottom. When you pound on it for a while, your fingers / joints may hurt a bit. Otherwise, it is more on the "doughy" side, and smooth playing is a bit difficult. That is easier on the Fatar (whose keys also are a bit lighter). Maybe it is good practice to have a P-80 at home.

I played on the P-80 successors P-90 and P-120, and I'd say they are too light and thus more difficult to control in the soft range. But that may be a matter of practice/adaption too. Anyway, they also feel a bit more "plasticly".

One important factor is connections for pedals. P-80 has one switch (not graded), and that's it. Fatar has one switch and one continuous controller. PTQ can map the resulting MIDI control messages of the pedals to anything, and you could connect an appropriate pedal to the "volume" jack to have half-pedalling sustain, connect a second switch to the original "sustain" jack and route that to left (una corda). PTQ nicely remembers those controller mappings after shutdown.

Clavinovas, to my knowledge, have at least a continuous sustain pedal. It is also good to have a compact housing (for home use, anyway) so there are no keyboard stand and cable issues. The pedals are firmly in place, the playing height is roughly optimal and the whole thing does not look like a recording studio.

Finally, if you're after the ultimate solution, there is the Yamaha GranTouch series (GT2) with a real Yamaha grand action (escapement!) but absent of strings and soundboard (a built-in sampled piano, but with PTQ, you can forget about that). It is some 9500 bucks though, and weighs a bold 100 kg (220 pounds). But I guess that's as close as it gets at the moment. This thing has two continuous pedals (sustain and una corda), and apart from the mini grand housing, even an integrated sound system which also features audio inputs (for your computer).

This is on my wishlist. It's Xmas soon

Thank you hyper.real. I have thought about stripping apart a VMK-188.  However, and to my amazement, my CME-UF8 is better to play with Pianiteq, it seems more sensitive, so I am in less of a hurry. I just got a GPP-3 which is brilliant, and better than I was expecting. I am still using the demo version of Pianoteq, but will purchase a copy in the next few weeks. then Synthogy Ivory will be redundant.  I'll start an other thread on speakers and will be keen for you kiind comments. Thanks again Mark

Yeah Yamaha GranTouch series (GT2) is very ,very good with Pianoteq , only we have very little problem , that when we connect PC sound card output to Yamaha Aux input ( to play thru Yamaha speakers } , this input is too much sensitive , and we must adjust too much volume level down, on sound card or Pianoteq ,this is not good to do, because volume is down in digital , and we have lost resolution,so we decide to "repair" little Yamaha and make sensitivity lower in GT2 preamplifier , because GranTouch don't have Aux input level adjust . Now is OK, after "repair" , we have best sound , sensitivity , touch response , and satisfaction... ahhhh .

To go back to the opening post...

While searching for information to help me choose a weighted controller 'board I found this on the Yamaha.com site:

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/cda/fla...player.asp

Amongst other things it does a really good job of explaining the three different types of keyboard they put in their digital pianos. I was looking at the P-85, but with the benefit of this information I would now favour the P-140 as it has the same mechanism as the CP300 for a fraction of the price. It costs a bit more than the P-85, but there are side benefits that help justify the price difference.

Perhaps you would try the new Vax77 from Infinite Response...

A very new manufacturer with a user weighted keybed...
Start wit the 43 gram stock weight or specify from the available weights...
27, 35, 43, 60, 70, 80 gram keyweights.

The Vax 77 generates the new HIGH RESOLUTION Velocity prefix(cc88),
from the lightest to hardest strikes there are over 16,000 levels of volume expression... up from the old 127 limit...Constant force springs deliver perfectly uniform keyweight throughout the keystroke, giving the fastest possible action...

http://www.infiniteresponse.com/

yeah it's been a while since tthe VAX77 was announced,
still no sign of it emerging from vapourware yet!

I was reading about its magnesium case! Is that wise...?
Would be pretty spectacular on stage if Keith Emerson set fire to one, I guess.
Do they make chocolate fireguards as well? :0)

Numa  numa?

Should they finally have heard my prayer for a quality keyboard controller with bus powered USB, two pedal connectors, only few buttons, WITHOUT a (quickly-outdated, non-upgradable) tone generator but WITH a housing large enough to accomodate a MacBook on top?

It's a shame such a thing hasn't come along in such a long time, but when this is it, I will give it a serious look!

I wasn't too inspired with the Studiologic SL990 (or so), but this looks like a very different category. Thanks for the hint!

One question: Can one connnect a continuous control pedal (volume etc.) to one of the jack, or is it just two switches?

Thanks!

Yeah! I used to schlep an additional Edirol Mini USB Keyboard just to have that control pedal input... (Plus some knobs, but mainly for the volume pedal)

PS. That strangely positioned Mod Wheel -- is that spring-loaded (like a pitch bender) or will it stay at where you set it (like the classic mod wheel)?

Thanks again
Dominik

Regarding the 2nd jack of the numa.  It does accept continuous midi control.  As far as the mod wheel goes.  It is in a weird place--weird only because we are used to having it on top.  It is rather nice to have the top of the keyboard flat and clean.  The mod wheel is NOT spring loaded, and is fully programmable to what ever control cc you want to send it.

Bill

Check out the Doepfer PK88, see http://www.doepfer.de/home_e.htm .

I have a Fatar Studiologic SL-990 Pro which is nice enough. It's all rather subjective though, ideally you should try them out.

I have plenty of cheapo keybeds that are bearable.
Action is never an issue with me as having done many live performances and recitals over the years you tend to have to play whatever you have set up already. This has taught me that most keybeds can be used w/o problems. Even the old spring keybeds that are horrific can be played.

So I tend to get excited by features for live performance instead of the " perfect " action which after 3 decades still doesn't exist on anything but a real Piano. No problem. I have endurance issues after 2 hours on a real Piano, so these fake peices of crap we use at the gig are a breeze.

The VAX77 looks different, and I will test that out at their booth in 5 weeks. PAT and many new features look promising, but so far it only talks the talk.

On the other hand for live guys, the CME UF50 w/ WIDI looks to be a fierce little performer.
If you notice it has wireless MIDI ( WIDI ). Big deal right? Actually it is for a gigging musician. Plenty of controls and a little secret most guys don't know is the MIDI Solutions F8. Wireless connected gear is easy with this as it has 8 x outputs for pedals, so the days of having to velcro your pedals and plug them in the back are gone.
Using the F8 and new wireless technologies that are emerging make live gigs lots of fun.
I have used the F8 for a few years for keyswitching live. I need both of my hands when I play and I never liked the one hand on the wheel solo jive anyway.Expression pedals and footswitches are far better suited IMO. Use the F8 to control note on/offs instead of wasting an entire left hand to do a horn section swell, etc.
I will still go and see the same regurgitations from the " real Piano " action claims, but it will be the same as it has everyyear.
If these same companies would spend more on new technologies instead of marketing slogans we might get something eventually.
Sadly only new companies are brave enough to break out of the current consumer products mold. How many years can the same little jpeg's of virtual hammers and useless techno babble work...?
Yamaha, Roland, Fatar, Korg, M Audio seem to think for at least another decade as their current controllers demonstrate.

I'm interested in the TP/40Wood keybed also.

Fatar only delivers to keyboard manufacturers, not individual private persons. And unfortunately they indeed do not respond to private persons.

There is one company though, called Doepfer, who can order a Fatar keyboard on customer's request. But then there's no service included; i.e. guarantee for spare parts in future etc. Doepfer also delivers the Fatar TP10 with service. They use this keybed in their own products.
Doepfer also delivers the electronics to connect the keybed to computer via midi or usb (depending on model and requirements).

i have a yamaha p-155.  it's alright.  but it doesn't give that bounce that is needed for fast repeated notes and trills. 

i sent back two of the kawaii mp8ii pianos because the keys were clicking and were uneven.  i don't think they are made very well.  the yamaha p-155 is made well, i think.  i'm happy with it, i guess.  i haven't played on anything better. 

that new yamaha cp1 got my hopes up.  i thought that was going to be great, but it's not.  it's awful.  the keys are so light.  it feels nothing like a real piano.  i don't know what they were thinking.  i guess if you want to play the titanic theme song, it's good.  but for scarlatti, forget it.

i also tried the roland v-piano.  it was ok.  but action-wise no better than the yamaha p-155. 

i don't understand why someone hasn't made a midi keyboard that feels just like a real grand piano.  i'm no craftsman, but it seems like something that is very doable.  you take a real piano, throw away the strings and the soundboard and have the hammers hit sensors instead.  the hammers need to be the same length as a real piano.  so the keyboard needs to be a bit deeper than they make them now.  am i asking for something that is unreasonable?  do they really not have something like this already? 

have you guys seen those midi organs?  those are serious instruments.  4 keyboards, buttons, full wooden pedal board, everything.  and they sell for about $2700.  to me that is reasonable.   they need something like that for pianists.  get rid of all those knobs, switches, speakers, and flashing red-lights.  built-in demo songs?  who wants to listen to elevator music when they are not in the elevator?

that's what pianoteq needs to do next!  make a keyboard.  that would be hot.

qbert,

thanks for the information. 
that does appear to be what i'm looking for.
why do you say it is awful?  does it not work well with pianoteq?

sorry, i haven't played on the ca 63/93.  if i do i will let you know

If you want to start with a TP40 set of keys and build it all up from there it is probably worth visiting the midiworks site for the electronics, midi encoders, whatever all else.

They are primarily organ parts suppliers, so be careful that any sensors come in 88 not 61 size sets and have VELOCITY, remember that organ keys are basically on/off.

Don't get distracted and start building a 5 manual plus pedal board instrument with 150 (virtual) ranks :-D

Start here;
http://www.midiworks.ca/index.php/products

There have been "Strings free" electronic pianos in which the hammers hit transducers.
There is a LOT of cost in the soundboard, case, strings, plate, etc of a physical piano, plus skilled labor, but good key beds and actions aren't cheap either (WNG, etc.).

Organs really are very different in this respect, their keys are simple on/off switches, there is no velocity component.

www.midiworks.ca IS worth browsing though, just for casual interest :-D