Does Pianoteq support sympathetic resonance repedaling?

Higher notes don't have dampers from certain point onwards, as you know (Last damper slider in Action tab).

You also might wanna raise sustain pedal noise as that is what is more apparent than symp. resonance when doing what you've described.

OK, I've done few experiments.

First, my initial experiments were done with keys lower than the last damper position which is logical since the described behavior involves a sympathetic resonance from open dampers of all the strings (damper pedal depressed). I have extended the last damper position to the rightmost position which still won't help.

However, I've moved the "sympathetic resonance" slider to the rightmost position and this time my second test works, however the resonance is barely audible and the difference between the resonance in test 1 and test 2 is vast.

So, it's maybe just a matter of calibration between the volume of resonances in test 1 and test 2. I think it would be more realistic if the resonance in test 2 is louder than the current level.

Hi Beto, I would kindly suggest that you read the last sentence in my first post

Soundboard direction doesn't matter. It's just simple physical principle - open strings are stimulated by the vibrating string. I've also observed this on various grand pianos I have played including a Steinway D which I have had the chance to play for two weeks in the great concert hall "Bulgaria" in Sofia. I mentioned "Steinberg The Grand" since it is a software which I know have implemented it.

On what ground are your objections being made? Have you tried it on a grand piano or is it just that you can't stand anyone asking questions on this forum?

If you are quick enough with the damper pedal and manage to press it immediately after you've pressed the key, it should be the same as if you've pressed the damper pedal before the key, however this doesn't happen. I don't think it's a serious bug, it's more of a calibration issue, however there's no way to tweak that in the interface as far as I can see.

Rohade is correct, thank you for your explanation! English is not my native language and I am probably not describing it in an easy to understand way.

Guillaume, what I describe here is different than pedal catch/repedalling. Pedal catch is the following:

1. Press a key
2. Release the key
3. Very shortly after that press the damper pedal.

What I describe is:

1. Press a key
2. Keep holding it
3. Press the damper pedal.

In my case the damper for the key stays open for the whole time and there's no need for the string to be "caught". However in both cases the dampers for all strings get lifted on step 3 which should generate sympathetic resonance to these string, caused by the initially pressed key. Try my scenario by pressing the damper pedal immediately after you've pressed the key. Even if you press it only in a hundredth of a second after you've pressed the key, the resonance is way too low and that isn't realistic according to me. I'll prepare a MIDI file tomorrow to demonstrate what I mean.

P.S. Of course, I am talking about very quick repedaling, otherwise the string won't have enough energy to excite the harp audibly, I am aware of that. My experiments with Pianoteq 4 today showed me that even if I am very quick with the repedalling, it still doesn't sound like there is any resonance, however I will try to repeat my tests tomorrow and prepare a MIDI file.

Well, I don't currently have Steinberg The Grand. I used a license of a friend of mine who has purchased it but I have never owned it and I can't use it anymore. That was so many years ago... maybe 2005 if I am not mistaken. The best way to show that is to do a recording of a real piano but there will be no MIDI to show the exact timing of key -> pedal... This is not a serious bug. I can live with that. I was asking more to see whether there's a setting somewhere in the interface. I am thinking of buying Pianoteq Play when it is released that's why I am trying to test everything possible before spending the money

One note whith out the attack part cannot get the other strings to vibrate enough to produce much sound.
I think that the release of the dampers will produce more sound to all the strings than the one note vibrating.
This answer is by the way just based on my own logical thinking.

Philippe,

Je crois que CyberGene a raison.

Autant je suis enthousiaste sur les avancées de Pianoteq 4 mais il y a qq chose qui ne va pas
au niveau de la résonance sympatique/sustain dans ce cas :

pour le comprendre il faut enlever le bruit de la pédale dans pianoteq (le pedal noise),
pour bien entendre si la résonance sympatique du sustain fonctionne bien :

joue C4 sans la pédale -> il sonne sans les harmoniques

après cela

joue C4 sans la pédale et en maintenant la touche C4 enfoncée actionne 1 sec après l'attaque de C4
la pédale sustain

et bien dans un vrai piano tu entends toutes les harmoniques des cordes libérées liées
à l'attaque proche (1sec à 3 sec)  mais dans Pianoteq la résonance sympatique des cordes libérées en maintenant C4 enfoncée en passant de pedal up à down ne s'actionne pas dans ce cas
Pianoteq.

En revanche dans le cas inverse cela fonctionne....
(Si tu attaques C4 pedal down et que en le maintenant enfoncé C4 tu passes pedal up rapidement après l'attaque , les harmoniques
des cordes libérées autres que C4 cessent de résonner... et dans ce sens ça fonctionne)

Donc c'est un bug...

je t'en prie compare avec un vrai piano de suite. Avec simplement le C4 par exemple

testé avec la demo 4.0.1 et comparé avec mon piano réel et le Garritan Steinway.

je pense qu'il suffit de programmer en fonctione du délai entre l'attaque d'une note pedal up qui reste enfoncée avec l'action de la pedal down, la libération des régles de la résonance sympatique pour les cordes libérées proche de l'attaque.

Contacte moi en MP si tu veux.

Ce point est délicat.

donc c'est pas le cas "after pedal" que cybergen explique

mais il faudrait repenser un cas

"action de la pedal sustain après l'attaque proche d'une note sans pédale sustain qui reste enfoncée"

c'est ce qu'essaye d'expliquer Cybergene

Here is Google Translate doing its stuff, should give an idea -

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Philippe,

CyberGene I think is right.

As much as I am excited about the advances of Pianoteq 4 but there is sth wrong
at the sympathetic resonance / sustain in this case:

to understand it you have to remove the noise of the pedal in Pianoteq (the pedal noise),
to hear if the sympathetic resonance of Sustain works well:

C4 played without the pedal -> it rings without harmonics

after that

C4 played without the pedal and pressing the button activates C4 1 sec after the attack on C4
sustain pedal

well in a real piano you hear all the harmonics of the strings released related
close to the attack (1sec to 3 sec) but in the Pianoteq sympathetic resonance strings released in maintaining C4 down from up to down pedal does not operate in this case
Pianoteq.

However in the opposite case it works ....
(If you attack C4 pedal down and hold it down as you pass C4 pedal up quickly after the attack, the harmonics
ropes released other than C4 cease to resonate ... and in that sense it works)

So it's a bug ...

I beg compares with a real piano on. With just the C4 example

tested with 4.0.1 and the demo compared with my real piano and the Garritan Steinway.

I think it is enough to program in fonctione the time between the attack of a note up that pedal is pressed with the action of the pedal down, release of sympathetic resonance of the rules for strings released near the attack.

Contact me by PM if you want.

This is tricky.

So this is not the case "after pedal" that explains cybergen

but we should rethink a case

"Action of the sustain pedal after the attack near a note that without sustain pedal is pressed"

This system tries to explain what is Cybergene
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Olivier, please listen carefully to the example "After pedal" that we uploaded this morning, it does exactly what you mention, the sequence being:
1) press a key and keep it down
2) x seconds after, press the sustain pedal down
3) you hear the sympathetic resonance of the other strings.
The shorter the delay between note down and pedal down, the stronger the resonance. We demonstrate it for x = 0.4, 0.2, 0.1, 0.05, 0.025, 0. For longer delays (above 1 second), it becomes almost inaudible, like on a real acoustic piano.

Olivier, do you hear it on the example "After pedal" http://www.pianoteq.com/listen_features ? There's not much at 0.4, a bit more at 0.2, etc...

A suggestion: with reverb off, push the Sympathetic resonance slider all the way to the right, you'll hear it very well. Maybe increase the default value to your preference.

EDIT: Sorry, reading the thread again, I see now that you tried that on post #4. Still the effect is pretty strong to me with headphones...