Technical specs for replicating physical piano

When I look at the photograph, I take a sudden deep breath and say WAIT. I can understand wanting to put a keyboard into this piano, but I hope you won't dramatically change (wreck) it. Please, don't destroy this piano. Many tuners and piano technicians hate these square pianos because they are difficult to work on, and some may tell you that these pianos can't be restored.  They can be restored. And yours might just need a good tuning.

So my first impulse is to say that, if you are not in a financial position to restore it, assuming that it needs repair, set it aside and find a console or upright on Craigs list or Ebay to hold your keyboard. On the other hand, if you can leave it unmolested and still remove the keyboard and insert a midi keyboard, then I don't worry. But can you?

These instruments are rare and have a sound all their own, although flawed from a modern viewpoint. Have you had a rare instrument dealer look at it? Not someone who deals in antiques in general, but someone who specializes in old pianos?

A smaller, but decent sounding, restored square piano:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zCFczyR...re=related

Here is a square piano that is closer to yours in size and that badly needs a general tuning, unison tuning, and other work, but it may give you another  idea of how this piano can sound. Clearly problematic and "old-sounding", but so are old Gibson archtop guitars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zO0dxJwKWw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk-DvPaW...mp;list=UL

Very "old timey" but that sound has a value.

By the way, what make is your piano? Do you know the builder and the year it was made? Have you had it tuned recently or inspected? (It may not have a cast-iron harp, and it may need to have A set to under 440).

The strong emotions raised by these old square pianos are surprising. Here's a sampling from the Piano World forum, with one person saying that the piano is both musically and financially worthless, and two other people supporting a restoration project and liking the "old sound."

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthre...659/1.html

But the piano mentioned in that thread was in very bad shape, so I'm not sure that I would have much hope for getting it to sound good. The pic posted by Hunner, on the other hand, showed an instrument that looks as though it's at least been kept clean.

Hmm. Come to think of it, would a PT version of an old square piano be good? We have several fortes, but no square....

Ooo yeah, a PT square would be pretty awesome! They were designed to be an easier fit inside a home and sometimes called "parlor pianos" because that's where they were often kept. I guess it has a pretty light action and bright tone without clear harmonics compared to a full grand. I've never heard it played perfectly however, since mine has never been in that condition mechanically .

I looked at the PNOscan website but couldn't really find much info about the price, process, and what modifications would need to be done to the piano. I didn't give it much more thought.

As you probably know, Chickering pianos were some of the best of the era. I found a video of a Chickering square with better sound than the other two videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNIaUxzI2n4

After listening to this, I certainly want Pianoteq to develop a model of this piano. And of course it makes me want to continue my perhaps unwanted, presumptive suggestion that you study the possibility of doing a few repairs on it.

After reading about the cracked harp and the problem with holding a tuning, I have to ask: Was it in the past mistakenly tuned to A440? My understanding is that that would be the exact recipe for cracking the harp, loosening the grip on the pins, and loosening the pin block and\or loosening the agraffes.

If you have had it restrung, then you've doubtless spoken with a technician, so I'm sorry if this advice is unneeded, but...if it's currently tuned to around A440, my advice would be to immediately (today) lower the pitch, or the situation will get worse--the harp crack will possibly widen and the pins or pin block and\or agraffes will almost certainly pull out further. These pianos just weren't made for that much tension. (Sorry to raise all of this, and to detract or distract from your interesting and valid intention but a Chickering is not a thing to let deteriorate if you can prevent it by simply lowering the pitch.)

Not an easy decision--when to give up on a piano. One consideration is that while the needed repairs may not be inexpensive, they may not cost nearly as much as one might fear. A complete restoration usually means a complete refinishing of the wood, adding new shanks and new hammers, a new action, and new strings. You've already had the new strings installed. Even with the cracked harp, you may just need to have the pins replaced with oversized pins. Things might be worse: you may need to have the agraffes reseated and re-glued or even a new pin block, if its pulled loose. (See http://www.jonespianohouse.com/JPH_Harpo.htm for one condensed source of information) The good people in the teq forum at http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthre...Forum.html usually have generous and practical advice, too, although, again, I would expect to get a mixture of views. If you post there, do mention that it is a Chickering that is at issue. )

Cheers. Looking forward to hearing what you do and more generally to learning what suggestion arise about putting speakers into a piano cabinet, whether it's this piano or another. (I've read that in creating the Avant Grand, the speakers were placed where the close mics were placed when the samples were recorded.)

Sorry for the long post. I just love the sound of the Chickering in that recording on the Schaffer site.   

In any event, your piano teq can advise you, obviously, much better than I can about the minimal repairs to get it into basic shape.

re: " nostalgia"... I don't think it's nostalgia per se, but if you listen to music composed for pianoforte played on a pianoforte, it takes a... "new" dimension! I recently recorded the well known Schubert's "sonata for arpeggione" with musicians playing an arpeggione (not a viola or a cello, as usual) and a Graf pianoforte. Believe me you re-discover the piece completely ! I don't say that you are not allowed to play Beethoven on a new piano, I just say it is different and very revealing to play on an instrument he could have played himself...

@ Gizmao: I think I would try... it depends on what you call "huge amount" of money of course ! ;-)
I recently put 2000 euros in my (from 1949) Gunther grand to get a better action and it's worth every cent, I play it every day with such a pleasure now ! I thought I couldn't play fast trills, well, in fact I can !!! :-)

And about the guys I recorded (in another piece and on another piano) and the beauty of old (forte)pianos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsCn8lbRG3I

@ Gizmao
Yes, this particular Steingraeber is the "opus one", i.e. the very first grand piano made by Steingraeber and, as such, as "untouched" as possible. Besides, it's not as well made as for example Liszt's own Steingraeber. This other old (1873) but more "restored" piano has a much more "modern" sound, and is more in tune, of course, albeit still lower than A=440 Hz (that's really not a problem for me...). I had the privilege to play a few notes myself on this piano in Bayreuth and the sound is much closer to current pianos.

By the way, the problem of ringing after release is a well-known one: in one of his letters, Beethoven himself writes about a piano whose release is better handled than another one (I don't remember the brands right now).

About the 100 years old soundboard... well, talk about this to a violonist with his Guarnerius or Stradivarius... ! :-)

Here is a picture of Liszt's Steingraeber... impressive, really !!!

http://www.dieklaviermachermeister.at/h...hp?lang=en

Yes, but did you listen to\see the recording and slideshow at my above link ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNIaUxzI2n4 ) of the Chickering model that is similar in age to that of the original poster (who is doubtless now regretting having posted)?

And remember that he is probably not interested in having the finish redone (one of the largest expenses) and has already bought the new strings (another large expense). I don't know what the costs of installing new pins or replacing the pin block and\or agraffes, or even the hitch pins are in his area. Looking on the Piano World site for about fifteen minutes, I'm guessing anywhere from well under 1K just to have bigger tuning pins installed to 3K for a new pin block and agraffes and hitch pins. Not inexpensive. But worth having a technician look at.

The crown may be gone and the keys need work, but we don't know how much. Sorry to defend an attempt to preserve this instrument. It may come from my memory of paying $175 for a 1940's Gibson archtop guitar in the 1980's and less than a year selling it for the same price because I couldn't get it to sound the way I wanted (like my flattop). I still cringe when I remember letting that guitar get away, and when I see someone about to give up on an instrument, I remember my enormous mistake.

Ah, well. I love the sound of that recording. Would I put $20,000 into restoring one to that state? Only if I were wealthy. Would I spend $5000 to restore one to that state? Very possibly. Partly because I like the sound and partly out of a desire to preserve what is becoming a rare instrument from a good company.

Although I don't find them all that objectionable, since they add to the sense of "old," I do hear the tuning problems. (Some it may come from unisons just not well tuned, and some of it may come from the lack of stretch. (?) (I don't really know, but wouldn't these pianos force one to use very little, if any, stretch in tuning the octaves?)

Regardless, for me, it would be wonderful to have this sound in a PTeq model. I wonder if editing one of the fortes or the Erard can create something close to it? Anyone?