Topic: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

Hi,

As some of you know, I'm still working on an optical sensor strip for pianos and keyboards designed to enhance the responsiveness of an arbitrary keyboard or just to midify an acoustic instrument. The project can be followed on my blog at http://sebion.wordpress.com if anyone is interested.
Now that the project has reached a certain state of maturity i have decided to implement polyphonic aftertouch as well. The only problem I've encountered is that there is no synthesizer that supports PAT in a manner that suits my needs. The basic idea is that i want to play something like a clavichord (as long as there is no clavichord synth on the market). The problem is that all synths I know that implement PAT filter the data witch a very low freqency lowpass filter which makes it impossible to play a vibrato with about 10 Hz.
I've tried this with a guitar synth that was freely (Independence Free) available and the result can be watched here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOPXmBqQ1fs
I know that there were some begs about including a clavichord into the historical instruments databse of pianoteq but what I really would like to do is to enable PAT for each instrument in pianoteq so that you could play with a bebung on a modern piano. Another idea would be to change other parameters through the PAT data which could be a great way to develope new kinds of instruments. If one is only interested in the clavichord a modified harpsichord with touch response and soft pianissimo hammers could come quite near to the sound of an actual clavichord.

So Modartt I'm begging you please implement PAT in the next version of pianoteq and you have one customer for sure!

Last edited by sebion (27-01-2012 00:29)
DIY digital piano on salvaged piano action with homemade optical sensor bar: http://sebion.wordpress.com

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

Sadly, as much as I'd love to mess about with poly AT on all sorts of soft synths, very few people will have controllers that can do it (I don't). I don't really expect manufacturers to change that because they aren't going to add costs to support a feature that few people want. So I think this would be a waste of development effort for the Pianoteq guys. I think there are problems with midi bandwidth also. PAT can generate huge amounts of realtime data - hence the low-pass filtering, quantization, etc.

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

@mooks but the development effort necessary to implement is not very much and there are some people having keyboards with PAT who could do great things with it. The midi bandwidth problem only exists when you use physical midi wires(I do and I am not having bandwidth trouble with the PAT feature yet. Besides my keyboard has an adjustable refreshrate for PAT data). When using a usb connection transmitting the midi data you definitively have the needed bandwidth.
But with one point you're obviously right, which is IMO the sad aspect of commercial products, that they have to serve the majorities only and things that few people want simply wont happen.
But maybe there is finally a change for PAT to become popular again as I have experienced my thinking about this feature really changed when I started to check it out: I don't want to loose it anymore!

P.S.: That low pass filtering thing on the synth side doesn't help to reduce the necessary midi bandwidth, but it is lets the PAT parameter move smoothly so that there is no crackle noise when tuning synth params with it. When you want to save bandwidth the controller has to do the low pass filtering, too.

DIY digital piano on salvaged piano action with homemade optical sensor bar: http://sebion.wordpress.com

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

I have the new Mellotron M4000D and that transmits PolyAT

Not sure what way pianoteq would respond to it though?

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

The most obvious response one could implement is mapping of PAT to the pitch or the volume of a key. But theoretically one could change every parameter with the PAT data.

DIY digital piano on salvaged piano action with homemade optical sensor bar: http://sebion.wordpress.com

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

sebion wrote:

@mooks but the development effort necessary to implement is not very much and there are some people having keyboards with PAT who could do great things with it.

OK, maybe I was a bit negative. Should have qualified with: if it's simple to implement then why not.

Hmm, how about playing the sound of a snapping string when you press too hard...

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

What I would really like is for PianoTeq to be able to run as an internal instrument in EigenD - the native environment of Eigenharps

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

I am a huge advocate of polyphonic aftertouch- I have owned a Yamaha CS-80, Roland A-80, GeneralMusic S3, Kurzweil MIDIBoard, and currently own an absolutely lovely Infinite Response VAX77 (which has the CC# 88 High Resolution Velocity control that Pianoteq happens to respond to- 16,000+ steps of velocity instead of 128), but IMHO I can't for the life of me think of any reason why Pianoteq should have PolyAT response.

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

mooks wrote:

Sadly, as much as I'd love to mess about with poly AT on all sorts of soft synths, very few people will have controllers that can do it (I don't). I don't really expect manufacturers to change that because they aren't going to add costs to support a feature that few people want. So I think this would be a waste of development effort for the Pianoteq guys. I think there are problems with midi bandwidth also. PAT can generate huge amounts of realtime data - hence the low-pass filtering, quantization, etc.

PolyAT is currently available on the Infinite Response VAX77 and Rhodes Piano Mk 7 M series; Supposedly the Rhodes RPC-1 controller will implement PolyAT also. MIDI bandwidth is no longer a problem on relatively modern synths, but it isn't widely implemented in hardware. Waldorf, some Korg, Roland, Dave Smith Instruments do respond to it, as do many softsynths (OmniSphere, Alchemy, ImpOSCar2, Zebra2, DIVA, Logic ES2, etc.).

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

@marzzz
The obvious reason would be to play the clavichord: one of the first known keyboard instruments. If you ever try one you will understand why it would be great to play old polyphonic music on it(it has a very gentle and transparent sound). It's like a harpsichord with touch response and the capability of playing a vibrato.

DIY digital piano on salvaged piano action with homemade optical sensor bar: http://sebion.wordpress.com

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

FWIW (probably not much), PolyAT is available on all the Eigenharp instruments via the MIDI agent. High-res (CC88) velocity is available as of EigenD V2

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

sebion wrote:

The obvious reason would be to play the clavichord: one of the first known keyboard instruments. If you ever try one you will understand why it would be great to play old polyphonic music on it(it has a very gentle and transparent sound). It's like a harpsichord with touch response and the capability of playing a vibrato.

OK, I can see that. PolyAT would be essential for recreating a clavichord. But then that begs a different question: Is that something that Pianoteq is trying to do? At what point does Pianoteq become "Keyboardteq?"

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

Pianoteq already covers a lot of historical piano's including two harpsichords and it imitates some electro acoustic keyboards like the rhodes, so I think the step to "keyboardteq" - as you called it - is already done in my opinion.

P.S.: I'm still looking forward to a statement of modartt regarding this topic

DIY digital piano on salvaged piano action with homemade optical sensor bar: http://sebion.wordpress.com

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

Hmmmm....

Well, If I set my EigenD Host to "Poly" it sends each keypress on a separate MIDI channel and the plugin simply works, providing poly-everything

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

sebion wrote:

Pianoteq already covers a lot of historical piano's including two harpsichords and it imitates some electro acoustic keyboards like the rhodes, so I think the step to "keyboardteq" - as you called it - is already done in my opinion.

P.S.: I'm still looking forward to a statement of modartt regarding this topic

Sebion, we plan to release a clavichord instrument in the future -- work has not yet started but we have collected all the material we need to build the model. So it is quite likely that at some point, poly AT will be supported by pianoteq 4.

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

Philippe Guillaume wrote:

Sebion, we plan to release a clavichord instrument in the future -- work has not yet started but we have collected all the material we need to build the model. So it is quite likely that at some point, poly AT will be supported by pianoteq 4.

That would be awesome! (I have just voted ). As an avid polyphonic aftertouch user myself, I hadn't even considered it for Pianoteq, but this would open up so many creative possibiliteis, making Pianoteq a much more "generic" physical modeling instrument.

I already tried a sort-of "taster" (well, at least via channel aftertouch)... by converting channel aftertouch into  CC #1 for "MIDI Learn" purposes. But it seems that most of the current paramenters (if not all of them?) are only taken into account on triggering a note, rather than continuously variable, so the result when applying AT is currently.. nothing at all .

Mac Pro Quad-Core (2009) 2.66 GHz | 16GB RAM | MOTU PCI-424/2408mk3|MOTU Midi Timepiece AV | Mac OS X 10.9.5 | Cubase 9.0.30.266| and others ;)

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

While adjusting the velocity response and well as the MIDI #88 High Resolution, I did notice in Pianoteq's MIDI monitor all of the polyaftertouch messages flying around from my VAX77; just a thought, but would it be useful (as in increase the efficiency of the Pianoteq instrument) to somehow have a setting to filter out all aftertouch messages from within Pianoteq? I don't want to do that from my keyboard or DAW as I use (poly)aftertouch frequently in other softsynths.

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

Marzzz, as I recall, you did some mods to your MIDIBOARD (back when you had one) to improve the action. Mine has a bit of irritating bounce which results in two MIDI notes--short then long--when I just want one.

Any suggestions, aside from the VAX?

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

doug wrote:

Marzzz, as I recall, you did some mods to your MIDIBOARD (back when you had one) to improve the action. Mine has a bit of irritating bounce which results in two MIDI notes--short then long--when I just want one.

Any suggestions, aside from the VAX?

Doug- I did nothing to improve the action of my MIDIBoard, but Kurzweil changed the action available to one that was built by Hammond-Suzuki, and you need to find one of the later (late 1988-89) models with the improved action, like mine was. Also, if you are getting a "bounce," make sure the Retrigger Threshold Slider is set all the way to maximum (all the way up).

In the meantime, do check out the new VAX77 Ultra Heavy action!

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

marzzz wrote:

do check out the new VAX77 Ultra Heavy action!

...which in the end is not "ultra heavy" at all. Any Yamaha or Roland weighted action is several times heavier than that one...

Hard work and guts!

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

EvilDragon wrote:
marzzz wrote:

do check out the new VAX77 Ultra Heavy action!

...which in the end is not "ultra heavy" at all. Any Yamaha or Roland weighted action is several times heavier than that one...

Well, it is relative. Infinite Response has three keyweights available- Standard, which is extremely light; Heavy, which is light; and Ultra Heavy, which is perfect. My understanding is that Heavy was outselling Standard on an order of 10:1 until they came out with Ultra, which is rapidly gaining popularity especially with those more used to playing piano vs organ/synth. I originally had a Heavy action and thought it was still a bit light, I am now very happy with Ultra Heavy.

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

sebion wrote:

The basic idea is that i want to play something like a clavichord (as long as there is no clavichord synth on the market).

FYI, I don't  know of any clavichord hardware synths but I do have the Wavelore Clavichord virtual instrument and it is quite nice.

Last edited by mabry (31-05-2012 18:38)

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

mabry wrote:

FYI, I don't  know of any clavichord hardware synths but I do have the Wavelore Clavichord virtual instrument and it is quite nice.

Their site says this: 'Also includes an optional multiscript that allows the use of polyphonic aftertouch for true "bebung" technique'

I have no idea what this means.

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

It's a Kontakt-related thing. You need to load that multiscript that will receive PAT messages and convert them to other MIDI events that are recognized by the clavichord instrument itself to enable more realistic clavichord behavior.

Last edited by EvilDragon (03-06-2012 07:53)
Hard work and guts!

Re: Polyphonic Aftertouch in PT

Never heard it, and no modern has ever heard how the clavichord players actually dealt with it. But clav keys were a simple seesaw, that on the strings side moved up to hit their string and raise it. Since the actual contact was a staple-like affair  called a 'tangent', sound continued while lift lasted, but pitch could be wobbled by wobbling the key player-side, varying string tension.