My Journey

Hello Don,

Welcome to the Pianoteq forum.

You are going to find many subtleties about Pianoteq as you gain experience playing with it.  As a very satisfied Pianoteq user since 2008, I can tell you firsthand that the program allows you to make so many changes to so many parameters that it can be both exciting and overwhelming (which translates to 'confusing' and 'frustrating') at the same time!   Ahhh, but the rewards of tweaking a piano that exactly suits our needs and tastes take time before they are fully acquired ....

As an analogy to this dilemma, please consider the experience of a person who has just acquired a state-of-the-art digital camera.  Although the camera may have 60 or more presets for handling various lighting and backlighting conditions, the first thing many people do with a new camera is to turn it on and click a picture (most probably without reading the instruction manual).  The camera is probably in an Automatic mode setting, as it comes out-of-the-box, and it renders good, but not great pictures.  Its true potential is lying just under the surface, waiting to be realized by a skilled photographer who is equipped to make use of the camera's latest features.   

The same thing usually happens with Pianoteq ... it sounds "good" as it comes out-of-the-box, but its true potential lies in the user's ability to mine the subtleties that Pianoteq has, that will tailor it to that specific pianist's musical needs.  You will find soon enough that, when Pianoteq gets zeroed into YOUR keyboard and playing style, then you will be at one with your instrument!

When I read that you had set the Dynamics slider to 100dB, I clearly remember that I did the very same thing when I first began using Pianoteq -- the logic being that I would be able to make use of the complete dynamic range that the piano has to offer.  Strange audible artifacts began to arise:  With dynamic ranges in excess of 70dB, I found that the built-in limiter was constantly backing off the signal.  In addition, I found myself post-processing my own recordings with loads of multi-band compression.  (In fact, some of the ringing artifacts were compressed audible artifacts of overload despite the limiter's action.)  Oddly enough, the way I attempted to tame the ringing ... was to reduce the hammer hardness, very much in the same manner that you did!

So here is what I (as a beginning Pianoteq user) had encountered:  There seemingly wasn't enough dynamic range, so I boosted it.  This caused distortion, excessive amounts of limiting needed to be used, so I softened the hammer hardness in order to compensate.  I blamed Pianoteq, when in fact it was I who made the first questionable move by overdriving the dynamic range.  After all:  if a little dynamic range is good, then a lot of dynamic range is better.  Right???  WRONG!!! (at least for me).

Now -- seemingly contrary to logic -- I began reducing the dynamic range to about 45dB -- and less!  Please stay with me here:  By reducing the dynamic range, I am now able to increase the differential in hammer hardness (keeping the pp slider set low, but allowing the mf and ff sliders to expand) without running into distortion (ringing) as much as before.  And let's face it:  one does NOT get ringing bass tones by playing softly!!!  Something has been overdriven into distortion.

Let's stand back, and figure out what happens in real life. 
A quiet room in a home has a nominal background noise level of approximately 50 - 60 dB, including the sounds of outside traffic, heating sounds, indoor plumbing, refrigerator motors, AC hum, spinning computer hard drives, etc.  A loudly played piano rarely goes over, say 100db, even if you are seated at its keyboard, except for some high notes' transients, which may hit 106dB.  (By the way, the sound of a gasoline-powered lawn mower is approximately 85dB as heard from a distance of about 10 feet).

Back to the discussion of pianos, although it is nice to conceive a piano with a 60-, 70, 100dB dynamic range, really all it needs in real life is about 40 or 50dB above ambient background noise, especially in a home environment. Also, be aware that every +3dB increase in sonic level is equivalent to a doubling of required amplifier power.  Add another 3dB, and you must double the amplifier power once again!  One's amplifier and speakers can run out of "oomph" quite quickly.

Hopefully you find this information helpful.

Cheers,

Joe

Nobody said it would be easy, right?

It might be good to invest some time in adjusting the velocity curve to fit your needs and keyboard...
Every keyboard responds differently and every player has his/her own 'feel' - the curve is sort of a basic 'interface' between what you do on your keyboard and how PIanoteq will respond...
after that there's obviously tons of other things to change...
Most of the time the sound one may need is somewhere in there but might be hidden in the 'velocity-cloud'. So you might try that first before getting into real editing.
Normally an M3 piano should be a nice basis for a jazzy piano

Hans

Hello Greg and friends,

To answer your question about simply lowering volume when the Dynamic [range] slider was raised to 100dB:  Oh, yes, I reduced Pianoteq's volume slider, so as to reduce clipping.  When clipping was reduced, then the "average" volume was too low, and I found myself making quirky finger adjustments at the keyboard.  In short, with a 100dB dynamic range, Pianoteq was controlling ME instead of the other way around -- the louds were clipping and the softs were too soft.

While working in the steel industry, I was aware of OSHA (the Occupational Safety and Health Act) guidelines, which stated that hearing protection was required when a worker was exposed to (I believe I recall) more than an hour per day at 85dB ambient room noise.  The mental guideline carried in my head was the noise of a gasoline-powered lawn mower (running of course!) heard at a distance of 10 feet.

* * * * *

The point I wish to make to Don et al is that, with time and patience, it is quite possible to find one or more personal Pianoteq settings that will suit one or more types of repertoire. 

At the moment, every new Pianoteq user is acutely aware of the sound.  The nature of human hearing is that it will "settle down" after a while, and one will "play" Pianoteq as though it were a real piano.  I do -- despite having both a Steinway Model M and a 5'8" K. Kawai at my daily disposal.

A personal anecdote recalls the year 1990, when I acquired my first Mac computer and a hardware "sampled" piano module called the EMU PROformance1.  This piece of hardware boasted a whole 1 MEGAbyte memory (one one-thousandth of a gigabyte) to capture all 88 notes of the piano.  In reality, 1MB of wav file corresponds to 1/10th of a minute -- six seconds -- total sample time to capture the entire piano!!!  [Don't laugh:  I paid extra to get a computer with 4MB of RAM instead of the standard 1MB of RAM!]

The point was, for about the first year, I would have sworn I was listening to a real piano!  My brain had acclimated to the sound.  Of course, that 1MB "sampled" piano sounded atrocious.  [EDIT:  Likewise, when I acquired several sample libraries, each time I was temporarily convinced I had achieved sonic nirvana in piano sound.  In reality, they have all been offloaded from my computer, because they require ME to adapt to THEM, rather than the other way around.  In contrast, Pianoteq and I seem to be at one with each other, in terms of playability and sound I am able to coax musically from the "instrument".]

* * * * *

Hans' commentary about adjusting the velocity curve and/or keyboard velocity characteristics ... is spot on!  I will make a great difference in the musical pleasure one derives from playing Pianoteq.

* * * * *

On the notion of perfect piano sound:
As you know, real pianos vary from instrument to instrument, even within like models of the same brand name.  Each has its own sonic and touch personality.  Some are good, and some are not as good. 

Even our mental idea of piano perfection is bound to change over time.
When I submitted Rhapsody in Blue for Philippe to post in the Pianoteq Demo section, I thought (at the time) I had achieved perfection in the sound.  .....   WRONG!!!  Two years later, I cringe at both the performance and the sound!  Not that either are exactly horrible, but my opinion of what constitutes piano perfection does change over time!!!  Your opinion may vary over time, too.

Cheers,

Joe

I have a question that I think is the equivalent to "the elephant in the room".

Is there anyone that is playing their piano on a regular basis using one of the standard presets ?

I assume the answer is NO !

Next question, is there anyone who is playing their piano on a regular basic using a very mildly modified version of one of the standard presets ?

I again assume the answer is NO !

If the answer YES to either of these questions, I would love to hear from you and find out what the "mild" modifications were.

The reason I am pointing to the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM is that I am wondering why a group of creative geniuses who conceived of PIANOTEQ and have brought it to this level seem to be unable to create a standard sound that a large number users would find usable right out of the box.

The answer to that question appears (to me, anyway) to be .... because they are unable to do it with the technology tools they have created.

I have no other explanation for it.

And, if that is true .... we are all doomed to failure in our attempts also.

I know this may not be a popular thought on this forum but I am open to correction.

NOW ... Having said all of the above ....

I still find this software intriquing and will continue to "fuss" with it periodically in hopes of finding that illusive "perfect sound". 

With just the right settings, there is a certain gentleness that begins to surface in these sounds and if I can keep the resonance down while maintaining clarity and gentleness I will have it.   LOL ....

It apparently is not easy since I have been pouring over the FXPs and have not come across it yet.

Thanks for the reply ... Glenn

In response to your "disagreement"....

I understand completely what you are saying.    However, I must come back to my original questions ....

Is ANYONE using any of the standard presets as is ?   or with only a tiny adjustment ?

If the answer is NO, which I believe is the case, it must be that those presets have somehow not been a sound that ANYONE likes.

Doesn't that seem strange ?

I'm reminded of a comment a car detailer made to me about car waxes - he dismissed all the waffle, and said "If it looks good, it IS good". The same applies here - if it sounds good, it IS good.   Seriously, yes, it's my understanding that it is completely normal to use the limiter for effect.

Greg.

Well, in any event .... I have created a reasonable preset for what I term as a standard piano sound.  It is a starting point and I would welcome any advice on how I might improve on it.   I know "improve" is a relative term but I am looking for a sound to play soft jazz solos in a cocktail bar setting.

Here is the preset:   http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.php?id=1423

And a little demo: http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/c634cbd91...f8ecbe6fba

Don

Well, like I said ... It is a start.    I hear too much "ringing" (resonance, I guess) but getting rid of that is not easy.   I have tried various things with little success.

Considering what you said about the lid, I will try to include that more often in my tweaking.

I want things to be more quiet when I am not actually playing something.   That constant ringing is annoying to me.

Hello Jerry,

I completely agree with your assessment about finding the "best" Pianoteq sound being a very personal process.  Unless personally asked, I do not post my fxps.  Why not?  Because they probably will sound weak, or muddy, or just "not right" when played under someone else's touch. 

A few years ago, I attended a NAMM show in Anaheim, California, USA wherein most of the world's greatest piano builders (as well as guitar and drum makers, orchestral instrument makers, synth vendors, etc.) presented their finest wares to NAMM members, a non-public event.  I definitely recall sitting at a 9' Bechstein, playing very quietly, and taking in the sound of this piano's subtle overtones, when .... KA-BLAMMM!!!! the Bechstein right next to me began being literally pounded (i.e., abused by deliberate banging)!   I do not recall what that person was playing, but suffice to say, my musical enjoyment was shattered by this person's noise.

The point of the above is this:  Even a real concert prepared Bechstein sounds (shall I say) different, depending on who is playing it.

Please note, I am not condemning anyone in this forum for their playing style -- far from it.  All I am doing is adding an anecdote to support your opening statement that finding the best sound is a personal process. [EDIT:  In retrospect, perhaps the raucous sound generated by the other player of the Bechstein WAS his "best" sound!!]

Cheers,

Joe

Don (assuming that's your name):

Almost forgot; if your version of Pianoteq will allow it, try randomizing a few settings.  A real acoustic piano is not a perfect creation - things like hammer hardness will vary from note to note.  It can add to reality.

I use a single click randomize on Hammer Hardness (piano, mezzo, and forte), Unison Width, and Impedance.  Some users also randomize damper position and effect, but I prefer a well regulated action done by an expert technician. 

Glenn

From what I understand from my first tweaking a year or two ago, the Spectrum Profile adjusts the relative intensity (or whatever the technical term is) of each of the overtones.. The manual is a little vague, but it does show that 1 is the fundamental, and I assume that 2 is the first overtone and so on. You might check out that tutorial in the manual (section 12.5 in my copy). It says that the adjustments are relative to the fundamental, so if you boost the fundamental, the volume of the rest of the overtones will be reduced.

I think the manual could use a bit better explanation on this.

Glenn

Sorry, I've only use Pianoteq Pro since it was released - don't recall what limitations are on other versions.

Glenn