Topic by Dr Gradus

  • Avatar
  • Dr Gradus
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 06-11-2011
  • Posts: 4

Topic: Some newbie questions

Hi there fellow pianoteq enthusiasts,

Im just looking for a bit of info in regards to soundcards and such.

I have downloaded the asio4all soundcard as recommended and I am running pianoteq fine with my recording software. There is however around 30 ms of latency and attempts to reduce it with the various settings sometimes results in their being some crackling with my recordings.

I was looking in to getting an extrenal soundcard, maybe something by focusrite, but my question is, will that really make a big difference to the latency, or is it really just a matter of me messing around some more with the settings.

If the latter, what would be some recommended settings for someone in my position. My laptop wouldn't be of massively high spec, which is probaly part of the issue!

So maybe some energy saving settings for the sample rate and all that.

Hope that's not too vague and idiotic.

Thanks in advance!

Reply by FJ

  • Avatar
  • FJ
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 08-02-2011
  • Posts: 18

Re: Some newbie questions

I currently have a Focusrite Scarlett and I have no noticable latency. But in my experience
Pianoteq does not require a more professional soundcard. I also have a regular Creative soundcard
and I have no noticable latency with that one either.

What kind of hardware do you currently have? Big chance that your latency problem
can be fixed by correctly configure your software/drivers.

Reply by Glenn NK

  • Avatar
  • Glenn NK
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 09-10-2008
  • Posts: 1,008

Re: Some newbie questions

First a disclaimer:  I'm not a soundcard expert and anything I say may be completely wrong.

What soundcard are you using?  You mention ASIO4ALL, but this isn't a soundcard, it's a universal ASIO driver for souncards.  From what I've read, generally the best drivers for a soundcard are the ones that are specifically written for the soundcard.  I use an EMU soundcard (1820M - an out of date s/c that still works) and the ASIO drivers are provided by EMU.  AFAIK, the EMU soundcards have dedicated ASIO drivers - that work.

Many people use ASIO4ALL with good results, but from what I've read on forums, the results are not universal with ASIO4ALL.

Note that this doesn't imply that ASIO4ALL isn't a good solution - many are using it with good results.

Hopefully someone like Joe Felice will see this and comment as he has considerable experience on this mater.

Glenn

Last edited by Glenn NK (06-11-2011 19:22)
__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Reply by olepro

  • Avatar
  • olepro
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Copenhagen, Denmark
  • Registered: 22-06-2007
  • Posts: 282

Re: Some newbie questions

If you are using a build in soundcard in your pc/laptop asio4all should work with lower than 30ms latency.
Have you chosen the right (asio4all) soundcard driver inside Pianoteq ?
You must do that after installing asio4all.

olepro's Website

Reply by Glenn NK

  • Avatar
  • Glenn NK
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 09-10-2008
  • Posts: 1,008

Re: Some newbie questions

olepro wrote:

If you are using a build in soundcard in your pc/laptop asio4all should work with lower than 30ms latency.
Have you chosen the right (asio4all) soundcard driver inside Pianoteq ?
You must do that after installing asio4all.

Sorry, I should have mentioned Ole, and not just Joe.

Glenn

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Reply by jcfelice88keys

  • Avatar
  • jcfelice88keys
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 22-09-2008
  • Posts: 1,149

Re: Some newbie questions

Glenn NK wrote:

First a disclaimer:  I'm not a soundcard expert and anything I say may be completely wrong.

What soundcard are you using?  You mention ASIO4ALL, but this isn't a soundcard, it's a universal ASIO driver for souncards.  From what I've read, generally the best drivers for a soundcard are the ones that are specifically written for the soundcard.  I use an EMU soundcard (1820M - an out of date s/c that still works) and the ASIO drivers are provided by EMU.  AFAIK, the EMU soundcards have dedicated ASIO drivers - that work.

Many people use ASIO4ALL with good results, but from what I've read on forums, the results are not universal with ASIO4ALL.

Note that this doesn't imply that ASIO4ALL isn't a good solution - many are using it with good results.

Hopefully someone like Joe Felice will see this and comment as he has considerable experience on this mater.

Glenn

Hello Glenn,

Thank you for kindly mentioning my name as a reference to answer the question of latency as related to soundcards.  Unfortunately, my computer is a MacPro, so I am not able to answer PC-related hardware questions.

With that said, I would like to share what level of performance Pianoteq is capable of achieving on my personal setup:  I regularly run Pianoteq at 128 samples (2.9 milliseconds latency) with 256 maximum note polyphony, achieving a Performance Index of 53, and zero crackling artifacts with more than 50 notes sounding simultaneously.

Please note this performance is achieved on an over 4 year old MacPro, equipped with four-2.66GHz Intel Zenon processors, 13GB of RAM, and four 10,000RPM Western Digital Velociraptor hard drives. 

Latency is approximately 1/10th of the 30 millisecond performance described by Dr Gradus, who partly alluded to using a laptop of modest performance capability.

* * * * * *

Seeing that I am not qualified to speak on behalf of PC-type hardware, perhaps someone such as Olepro may wish to chime in from the PC side, regarding choices of sound card.

Hope this sheds some light on what is achievable with Pianoteq.


Cheers,

Joe

Last edited by jcfelice88keys (07-11-2011 08:51)

Reply by olepro

  • Avatar
  • olepro
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Copenhagen, Denmark
  • Registered: 22-06-2007
  • Posts: 282

Re: Some newbie questions

Hi again

I just tried out on my own system.
I have an older dell laptop with the very first dual core pentium processor.

With the latest version of asio4all and the build in sigmatel soundcard i can get down to 4.4 ms (192 samples) with 64 notes or more polyphony.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24081154/asio4a...ndcard.jpg

With my Novation X-Station usb keyboard/soundcard i can get down to 1.1 ms (48 samples)
allso with at least 64 notes of polyphony.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24081154/X-Station%20asio.jpg

Look at the pictures to see the audio setup in Pianoteq.

Hope that helps :-)

Last edited by olepro (07-11-2011 10:29)

olepro's Website

Reply by Dr Gradus

  • Avatar
  • Dr Gradus
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 06-11-2011
  • Posts: 4

Re: Some newbie questions

Hi there again and thanks for the surprisingly quick and very insightful responses!

I guess the type of soundcard i'm using with the asio4all driver is whatever is currently in the laptop!

As I said its probaly something I can get sorted from just playing around with the settings.. But would an external soundcard like a focusrite saffire or something make a difference or is the latency/performance issue mainly to do with the computer settings. I'd rather not invest in an external soundcard and then find it hasn't really improved anything.

Reply by Glenn NK

  • Avatar
  • Glenn NK
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Victoria, BC
  • Registered: 09-10-2008
  • Posts: 1,008

Re: Some newbie questions

Dr Gradus wrote:

Hi there again and thanks for the surprisingly quick and very insightful responses!

I guess the type of soundcard i'm using with the asio4all driver is whatever is currently in the laptop!

As I said its probaly something I can get sorted from just playing around with the settings.. But would an external soundcard like a focusrite saffire or something make a difference or is the latency/performance issue mainly to do with the computer settings. I'd rather not invest in an external soundcard and then find it hasn't really improved anything.

I honestly don't know the answer to your question, but I will offer this:

When my EMU 1820M failed a year ago and was being repaired, I had to resort to the onboard sound card.  It was not very good at all, and in fact I could barely stand to listen to Pianoteq being played through it.  Fortunately the repair (consisting of replacing a few capacitors) only took two days, but it was a rough two days.

There can be a world of difference between a top notch sound card and the onboard one.

I would seriously consider something better.

Glenn

PS - in Options/Devices in Pianoteq, my device is ASIO EMU.  At the bottom of the screen where it reads, "show this device's control panel", when I click on it, it brings up an EMU screen where I can set the "ASIO Buffer Latency" in milliseconds.  Mine is set to 7 ms, and I can't notice any latency when I play.

The beauty of custom ASIO drivers for a particular sound card is that they have a better chance of working than ASIO4ALL.  I'm not trying to sell you on EMU (they've had their problems), but their drivers are dedicated and they work.  EMU is owned by Creative Labs, a major player in the gaming sound card market - also used by many musicians.

Corrected spelling.

Last edited by Glenn NK (08-11-2011 07:25)
__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Reply by olepro

  • Avatar
  • olepro
  • Member
  • Offline
  • From: Copenhagen, Denmark
  • Registered: 22-06-2007
  • Posts: 282

Re: Some newbie questions

Dr Gradus wrote:

Hi there again and thanks for the surprisingly quick and very insightful responses!

I guess the type of soundcard i'm using with the asio4all driver is whatever is currently in the laptop!

As I said its probaly something I can get sorted from just playing around with the settings.. But would an external soundcard like a focusrite saffire or something make a difference or is the latency/performance issue mainly to do with the computer settings. I'd rather not invest in an external soundcard and then find it hasn't really improved anything.

There shuldn't be so much playing around with settings.
There are some settings you just HAVE to do to get it working.... have you tried to look at the pictures i posted and compare to your own settings ?

When working with asio4all you don't do the latency settings in the asio4all panel but in the Pianoteq asio buffer size window.
On my setup this window is empty before i click inside it...

Last edited by olepro (08-11-2011 07:29)

olepro's Website

Reply by Tinknocker

  • Avatar
  • Tinknocker
  • Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 19-07-2010
  • Posts: 28

Re: Some newbie questions

In Pianoteq look in Options and click on Perf. It should say what kind of CPU you have. Also make sure you have CPU throttling disabled.

If your CPU isn't up to the task of running Pianoteq it doesn't matter what kind of soundcard or driver you use.