Tactile Transducer

No question I play differently when I get tactile feedback back into my hands from the keyboard.  The transducers are a great idea and I've long thought someone should build that into the keyboard controller.  Would be nice to avoid all the extra outboard gear and cabling when you need to move the thing around a lot.

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/musicians/index.htm

looks good?

Nice.

Yeah, that bad boy is probably around 100x more powerful than the puny exciters I got. I'd be afraid of my piano falling apart during some Rachmaninoff...

These are the ones I got (with the amp included)

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet...er=300-381

EDIT: That ButtKicker Mini-LFE model is probably just about perfect as a higher quality alternative to my cheap-o's. I think mine are ~15W each, and they're running at around 90% on the amp to get a good vibration level. Something more substancial running at a lower amp level is probably more reliable, and you'd probably only need one.

EDIT 2: I've been looking at the Yamaha AvantGrand models (N2 & N3) and they have that "TRS" (Tactile Response System?) that supposedly provides tactile feedback. Think they're just beefy speakers, or actual tactile transducers like these?

If I were more brave, I would partially disassemble my piano and see if I could mount the transducers in a better location inside the case..

So you attached these transducers to your Roland HP203?

Has anyone tried attaching them, or similar transducers, to a real piano's soundboard? In other words, one would play a midi keyboard that triggers PianoTeq, and the signal would then be sent to vibrate the real piano's soundboard. (One could use a mixer so that the signal went to both monitors and the real piano, and one could thus control the amount that each contributed to the sound.)

Or can these transducers even overcome the sound board's impedance and the downbearing force of the strings? Perhaps with the pedal depressed, so that the dampers let the strings vibrate?

Not sure if the result would be worthwhile, but I'm still curious...

Hello Glenn,

I read your reply of 29OCT2011 regarding acoustic vibrational feedback, and found it to be a very interesting read.  Although I consider myself to be a somewhat accomplished musician (piano and pipe organ), I do not feel the need to perceive vibrational feedback from the piano I play, to enjoy the piano I am playing.  In fact, when playing the pipe organ, by definition, there is no tactile feedback of acoustic vibrations from the keyboard itself.

So, in a way, I am agreeing with you.  At the same time, JerryKnight's opening statement mentions that he is a purely classical pianist who wishes to duplicate all of the nuances of a concert grand.  He did forewarn us to "keep this in mind if you think what I did is crazy or misguided."  In his case, Jerry is entitled to feel vibrations from a real grand (and even the best of them still do emit vibrations through the frame, case and keyboard);  in fact, I applaud Jerry that he went so far as to engineer his own physical solution, and was kind enough to share it with the Pianoteq forum!

For a moment, back to the topic of perceiving acoustic vibrational feedback: 
I re-visited the Steinway M at my disposal, to characterize and describe what is felt.  When playing any notes from, say, G5 and below, it is very easy to feel acoustic vibrations from non-musical portions of the piano, including: the keyboard, the piano's wooden case, soundboard, pinblock, the cast iron frame -- and you can also perceive vibrations if you raise your left knee to the frame below the piano's keyboard.

Now, here's the rub:  The manner in which you depress and hold the notes in order to perceive the vibrations usually (at least in my case -- your experience may vary) does not consist of classical playing technique.   To state differently:  One can certainly perceive vibrations when loud notes, of clusters of notes, are played and sustained by your hand.  Fair enough; however, my experience has mostly involved long sustained (hand held rather than sustain pedaled) notes are usually the soft notes!!!  Usually when I play loudly, the repertoire and my technique usually requires my fingers to be on the individual keys for relatively short times, so that I really don't notice the sensation as it occurs!

Even though my own playing experience does not "require" tactile acoustic vibrational feedback through the keyboard, I do not "miss it" when playing on my trusty 22-year old Roland A80 mother controller keyboard.  At the same time, I defend JerryKnight's right to strive for this sensation if he desires, and has the ability to simulate it in his own electronic rig.

Enough of my rambling.  Bravo to both Jerry for initiating this thread, and to Glenn who takes a different approach and encourages us to focus our mental energy ... and the piano's physical kinetic energy towards Pianoteq's ability to produce realistic piano sounds.

Cheers,

Joe

I agree completely with Glenn. I have an admittedly biased basis of "perfection" (artistically speaking) but I can also fully appreciate the idea that technically, many of the features I'm considering are actually artifacts of imperfections and problems faced by the countless piano designers and builders. It's definitely my classical background.

You're completely right - vibrational feedback was the "low-hanging fruit" in my quest for realism. The cost to implement it was less than 3% of the cost of my piano. I roughly outlined my quest so far, and this step was by far the simplest and cheapest, but for me it was still rather profound.

I think the next step will be the most expensive: A digital piano with better action. The Roland PHA-II is a great action, and the escapement/let-off mechanism is okay (I rarely feel that "catch" at the bottom), but I know there are better ones out there. I think that's why I'm so intrigued with those AvantGrand's. Yamaha claims they used an actual grand piano action, and that the velocity measurements are taken from both the impact of the hammers and key sensors. It sounds like something pretty close to the best that I can hope for from a "digital acoustic" piano.

I use those Dayton Audio Pucks, and find them to be a wonderful enhancement.  I use my console for playing Organ (Hauptwerk), and also Piano (PTQ and sampled Pianos).  I have the Puck transducer attached to my Bench, and the sound is delivered through Headphones.

The Puck Transducer gives a great sense of "presence", especially on the deep bass sounds of the Organ or the Grand Piano.   Highly recommended.