Communicating with Studiologic?

Thank you very much for the detailed response. I will certainly give your recommendations a shot and post my findings.

I'm sorry we didn't resolve the problem between us. I have personally looked into retrofitting a PNOscan Midi Strip into the NUMA Nero to provide a much more reliable midi output. It would replace Fatar's/Studiologic's sensor strip. This would be worth doing for myself as I absolutely love the feel of the keys and it would mean not having to go back to square 1 with regards researching the alternatives. The ONLY problem I've had with the NUMA Nero is the sudden high velocity issue, but that is almost always only when playing rapid repeats on any single key.

Have you bought something else now?

Hope you find something you are very happy with,

regards,

Chris

Yeah, it's rare that I buy products from a company that doesn't have a stellar reputation for after-sale support. I was really holding my breath with this purchase because of the horror stories I've read all over the web, but the specs were just too irresistible for what I was looking for. I have plenty of friends using the 990 keyboards with no problems whatsoever, so I thought it was a pretty safe bet. I was wrong. The sales guy who I bought the second NumaNero from shed a little insight into the situation. I guess these things are assembled in Tunisia and not in Italy as the company advertises. The factory in Tunisia was hit with a bomb recently, so not only is morale down and the workforce unreliable, but they're having trouble obtaining parts and quality materials. So, that's why they're so back ordered and poorly constructed / quality checked. So says he.

I've decided that I'm going to try and have this unit repaired. My sales rep got in contact with the distributor and they offered to pay for repairs and supply parts from a b-stock unit, so if this goes well, I'll just stick with it and use it as much as possible before it disintegrates or tries to probe me.   If not, my desk will fit a 990 unit so I may go that route.

Yeah, they're great.

That's a good idea, for sure. I may go that route as well. Couldn't find any info on the strip though. Seems like it may be quite costly.

By the time you're done upgrading the Nero to what it should've been in the first place, you could get a Roland RD-700NX or Kawai MP-10, both with better action, better response (because it's not just about how the keys feel, but how they trigger sounds), great internal sounds, better connectivity, more features in general, and better reliability/support. Heck, even a Casio Privia would be better money spent.

Are you running the latest firmware?

You can download here:

Numa firmware

Updating can be a bit tricky...follow the instructions and you will be fine though.

Interestingly, that page doesn't even have the latest. It's up to 1_7 now.

Do you have a link?

Nothing obvious, no. I took a quick look at some recently recorded midi where I have soft and loud passages, and I don't see anything like a spike in the soft passages. I do see some 127 values in the loud passages, but it seems correct according to how hard I was playing.

I do get a stuck note once in a while, but I switch back and forth between my PC, Receptor, USB, and midi (and the Receptor has an older version of Pianoteq 3) so I am not sure who is to blame.

Do you get the same result on a different PC?

Having said that, there may be calibration issues???

Funny how things tie up isn't it! I was just looking again at the behaviour of my keys and thinking, maybe, just maybe, it's not so much a 'dirt gets in the sensors' issue (although that does of course happen) nor an electronics issue (although some have talked about problems with pedal velocity), as much as it is a set-up issue? I have been getting some very odd velocity behaviour at the high end of the board since I lowered the strike point.

This makes sense to me in that I've just moved the whole strip and the physical timing of the sensor lugs has changed as a result. As I am not able to recalibrate the key velocity, any variation in height i.e. distance between sensor and trigger, will show as a variation in velocity levels. My keyboard was actually a lot louder globally after reassembly.

The setup factor would also explain the repetition aspect. In a real piano, regulation is crucial for the action to work at it's best. This is exactly the same for electronic instruments. Actually, the most important area this is true for in an electonic piano is of course the trigger/sensor/calibration centre. Get this right, and most other things are secondary. So is it reasonable to assume that repetition problems and their often related errant velocities are an issue of setup? Think of the structure of the sensors and how that structure relates to the circuit board. Two conductive lugs, one longer than the other, contact the circuit board at different times when the key is played. Should the angle of the circuit board in relation to the triggers that activate those lugs be altered, the timing would obviously be effected and thus the resuting velocity curve. Introduce height variations i.e. distance of circuit board/sensor from trigger and you have a variation in strike point.

Trills can be played much lower into the keys now, but only extremely slight improvements to repetion on a single note. I have a theory, although it is only that, that the front-to-back angle of the sensor strip plays a big part not just in relation to velocity, but also to ability to repeat well. I see it is this way in my head, although I don't yet completely understand it nor do I have the words to describe it fully yet. I will try though...

... If the strike point has been lowered as is the case with myself and the Nero, if it were strike height alone that aided/hindered repetition, I would have found significantly more improvement in the ability to repeat after having lowered the sensor strip last Wednesday. I haven't. No I could just write the whole thing off and dismiss the Fatar sensor strips as faulty and simply go ahead and install the PNOscan midi strip. But now I'm thinking, what about all those guys and gals who have Fatar keybeds in their boards all over the world (And lets face it, there's a few of 'em out their ain't there - I mean boards, not gals!). I would prefer to find the solution to this/these problem(s). It would also mean hope for others in the same boat.

Now, as I began to say, repetition didn't improve really, certainly note noticeably. One may think just as I did, that giving more clearance to the sensors during repetition by lowering the strike point would ensure that each successive note would get more chance to trigger. But what if the case is this. That not only does the angle of the circuit board effect velocities, but also repetition. I am no physicist, but I can see that it most probably would??? Any physicists confirm this??? Mooks??? I suggest that the same physics that alters the velocities alters the repetitions. I know the hammers go in and out of phase etc. and this can effect how load successive notes repeat at, but the keys are still being depressed regardless. It's not dependant on the hammers like on a real piano, it's dependant on the triggers and sensors.

Question, how on earth do I work out the ultimate 1. distance of the circuit board from the triggers, and 2. angle of the circuit board in relation to the triggers???

I guess it is important to make reference to the timing of the hammer strike in relation to key-bottoming-out on a real grand piano. Does someone here know the exact measurements for these, i.e where should the trigger point be in a digital piano keybed? I thought it should be at letoff/escapent point, and this is what I (roughly) set it to when I lowered it last Wednesday!???

Lastly, before I end up writing a thesis!!! Repetitions. How should repetions on one note behave. How fast should I be able to execute them comfortably on a keyboard reliably? Has anyone experience of the casio triple sensor keys and what do they feel like when they repeat. How do they behave. And finally, is it absolutely necessary to have an extra sensor under your keys to sense repetition or can I just repeat the note on/note off at a lower point (which is what I thought I'd be able to do by lowereing the strike point?

Thank you for humouring me (and reading this rediculously long post!!!)

Regards,

Yours apologeticly,

Chris

Yet more tickling the ivories made me think, I hope that there is scope to set the sensor strip slightly lower than it's present lowered position. I still haven't reached letoff/escapement at point of note on and I know that this position will enable the sweet repetition spot I mentioned before. I was concerned that lowereing it further, and even the fact that I had already lowered it, albeit less than 1mm, would mean that the key release sample would be triggered too early. So I then tested the key off timing by increasing the volume off the key off sample and listening to the sync. At first I thought I would have to radicly increase the latency to compensate but thankfully this is not the case. I have an audio buffer of 2.0 in PianoTeq. Therefore, I shall be able to lower the sensor strip a tiny bit more. I have ordered some M2 nylon washers to space out the strip. Previously I use a strip of adhesive foam, which of course was not very scientific of me!!!. The washers will allow me to fine tune the height of the strip. The M2 size washers are 0.3mm thick so this will allow me to stack them until I reach optimum spacing. I'll post a timelapse video when I open up the board again. This will include the whole operation from start to finish so that anyone else who wishes to reposition the sensor strip (or just clean the sensors - I'll be doing that as well) will be able to see how to do it. I'll be sure to let you guys know by how much it is finally lowered when I am finally happy with it.

One last thing to mention for now is that lowering the strip means that the note is triggering closer to the hammer knock of the keyboard. This results in a difference the perception/feel of the action. It feels somewhat more direct and it also seems to me to feel lighter. Of course this is not the case physically, but be aware of this if you wish to adjust your trigger point in this way. Even a small physical change will be noticeable. Latency can be used to compensate to some extent, but there will be a point at which it is lowered further than latency can mask. I have found this already. Mind you, I have read that letoff/escapement should be at strike point on one piano regulation site (can anyone confirm this?) and I haven't yet reached that distance.

Again, all this looks extremely promising,

warm regards,

Chris

To be honest, I have come to the conclusion that the reason some Numa's, VMK's etc. are fine while others exhibit this random 127 velocity to varying degrees is simple. Dirt!!! Mine certainly behaved much stranger in certain places after cleaning the sensors with slimey baby wipes!!! Many people who had velocity problems, after properly cleaning their sensor strips have reported to have solved them. I will repost the link to the Nord Fatar keybeds article in a moment.

My sincere advice, don't give up on the Nero yet! Certainly not until I have thoroughly cleaned my sensor strip (and adjusted it's height - my own preferrence for repetition purposes) and posted links to the timelapse video of this process and a normal video of the end result. You will then be better informed (as also will I) as to what differences cleaning the sensors makes. (and the differences lowering the strip to trigger=letoff/escapement level.

Hang on in there

Regards,

Chris

These are the measurements of the present keystroke taken at C3

Touch Depth = 11.5mm

Note-On point = 8.5mm down from keytop / 3mm up from end of key travel

Note-Off point = 6.5mm up from end of key travel / 5mm down from keytop

From these measurements it is clear that I can only lower the sensor strip a little.
The note-on point is already only 3mm from end of key travel so I think I need to aim for between 2 and 2.5mm, preferrably nearer 2.5 than 2, but I may need to set it nearer or at 2mm in order for the repetitions to work best. It would be a shame to lose any kind of sense of letoff/escapement/hammer delay etc. due to having to set the strip lower than I would have liked. The final decisions will be based on the present height of the sensor strip from the frame (as set last time). I shall measure the current height before removing any screws.

Regards,

Chris

Just found this on-line...

"My Studiologic VMK188plus arrived last night, and I spent some time with it after rehearsal tonight. My patience has paid off, as this is the best keybed action I have ever felt on a digital keyboard. Very solid construction, no side to side wiggling, no annoying click sound or stickiness.

Just as the Keyboard review said, escapement is slightly slower than on some other boards like the CME's, but if you simply re-strike a bit further back on the key, there is no problem at all doing fast multi-strike patterns."

Pretty much explains why I have been in the process of lowering the strike point!!!

First of all, a big thank you for reading my posts!

I am very pleased you are getting the expression you want from the Nero. It IS very dynamic and expressive - one of it's key features. I never had anything like this kind of range on my Yamahas (P120S and CP33). That was one of the first things that struck me when I got the Nero, the ability to bring so much more out of PianoTeq.

Maybe you could look at the repetition area in Rhapsody in Blue? But I don't think it will bring any problem to light on your Nero that hasn't already shown up. I do think however, that I need to get in there anclean out the sensors and switches/contacts with the proper stuff (isopropyl alcohol) rather than the baby wipes I used before!!!
This will sort out the errant velocity business.

As to the travel range, and the note-on and note-off trigger points within that range, it dawned on me this morning how to accurately calculate the distance by which the sensor strip needs to be adjusted. The distance between note-on and note-off points at the keyfront on my Nero is 3.5mm. Now all I have to do is measure the difference in length of the two carbon contact lugs located in the silicone switches and this measurement (which I suspect is around 1.75mm) can be used to calculate how much packing (0.3mm thick nylon washers) I need to place between the sensor strip and it's supports.

At the moment, I couldn't tell you how much the packing has raised the sensor strip because I used foam !!! (Daft eh?). What I shall do when I open the board to clean the strip and adjust the strip height is first of all measure the distance of the board from the metal base and then again when the foam packing tape is removed and cleaned up. The difference between these particular measurements will show me how thick the packing was and indicate to me how many washers I need to pack it to that distance. Then I suspect all I'll need to add on top of that is 2X0.3mm washers. This will lower the note-on / note-off points by approximately 1.2mm which will be perfect for the rapid repetitions. This will mean that note-on will occur at approximately 1.8mm above bottom of key travel and note-off 3.5mm above note-on at approximately 5.3mm. This means that the key only needs to rise to a minimum of >5.3mm rather than it's present minimum of >6.5mm. This makes a bigger difference than one might think.

Further testing last night revealed that I am actually getting better repetition since lowering the sensor strip a week ago? I think it was Wednesday last week?!!! Also some notes on rapid repetion now absolutely refuse to spurt out random errant 127 velocities no matter how hard I try to make them!!! As I've said a few posts back, I am now convinced this was a dirt/grime issue and that even after wiping with 'baby wipes!', there has been a significant improvement in performance. Lowering the sensors has nothing to do with this, it is just to aid ease of rapid repetition on a given note.

Regarding your measurements, you say you're getting 13-14mm before strike (note-on?) and 2mm aftertouch (escapement?). That's a travel of 15-16mm! Yamahas have 10mm! On my Nero I'm calculating 11.5mm full touch range broken down as 8.5mm before strike (note-on) and 3mm escapement so I'm not quite sure why your touch figures are so high? What I can concur is that the key top level is indeed very high, higher than a normal piano I am convinced!

Some of my washers have just now arrived. Just waiting for isopropyl alcohol and more washers and then I'll be ready to open up the board again. However, it may be next Wednesday before I do.

Regards,

Chris

Looking for information online, I found this on Piano World

Blow - 45mm
Let Off - 3-1.5mm
Drop - LO+1.5mm
Key Dip - 10mm
Back check - 15mm

These are purportedly factory recommended measurements for the regulation of an Estonia grand. Interestingly, and particularly happy news for me, the recommended 'Drop - LO' is +1.5mm. Even though this dosen't look much, you can certainly feel a drop of 1.5mm when depressing the key. The 3mm drop I have at present on the Nero feels more like 4-5 (and I'm no princess!!!).

As I mentioned in my last post, I was reluctant to go to 1.0mm and prefered if possible to set a drop (note-on point) of 1.5mm. Finding the above info has certainly helped me to see that I'm on the right track!

I apologize for the confusing terminology here, I know I haven't explained this aspect very well. I will do my best to do this now.

When I use the term escapement or letoff I mean that point on a piano action when the jack or knuckle leaves the hammer butt. Because this point is so close to hammer strike point, I mentally see the point at which the note-on midi signal is sent i.e. the point at which the note sounds and the point at which escapement/letoff occurs as the same. This might have been a cause for misunderstanding in my posts here. As the Nero has no mechanical escapement / letoff, when I depress a key slowly to find it's note-on position, as soon as I hear the note sound, I stop depressing the key. Then when I depress the key the rest of the way, I experience what I perceive as the key drop (that which happens after escapment - after the jack has tripped out of the butt and the hammer has been thrown in a real piano action.

I'll try to put simpler still. I have chosen to put note-on in the same place in the keydrop of the Nero as one would find escapement/letoff on a real piano's keydrop.  THAT'S BETTER!!!

SO, I'll aim to set the sensors so that note-on occurs at 1.5mm from bottom.

I am actually very surprised that drop is set so low. I thought it was something like 3mm, but I realise now that it is half that. If you look at 10mm on a ruler it seems so small, but you can do so much with that small distance when that 10mm is magnified by the levers in the mechanism that is the action. Also fingertips are extremely sensitive - take braille for example!!! and have any of you had a finger jab? My that used to hurt!!!

I sometimes feel like I've hijacked the PianoTeq forum. I write on it nearly every day, often several times a day, and my posts aren't particularly short are they? (I hear a yawn!!!). Please don't let me put anyone off here. If my posts are something of a sleeping tablet to you, then please let me know. I am just so passionate about the whole PianoTeq/playing/posting/uploading/reading/anticipating(PT4)/discussing THING!!

Just so you know!!!

Regards,

Chris

http://www.ofai.at/~werner.goebl/papers...Action.pdf

@sigaasa: thank you very much for posting this research paper. It's very interesting to me :-)

You're welcome Sebastian

John, you are right. I am a little bit of a perfectionist in some areas. I have enjoyed measuring and analyzing, and the problem solving process that has been whirring in my head! It won't be long before I realize the benefits of all this.

It is very true what you said about the differences between the design and purpose of the action of a real piano compared to that of a controller/midi keyboard. When I read this research paper, it really brought that home to me - the fact that even the "best" hammer action controller... keyboard available at the moment is nothing like the real thing, even if it is hooked up to PianoTeq Pro with the best sound system, acoustic environment, etc. etc.. If you want to "experience a Grand Piano", you must go "EXPERIENCE A GRAND PIANO!!!". Nothing is like playing a Grand Piano other than playing a Grand Piano!

If however you want to make fine recordings of a Grand Piano, then there are a large number of keyboards out there that, when hooked up to PianoTeq, will enable you to do so. Granted, there may be some setup needed - sometimes intensive - but on the whole, you can do a fairly nice job out of the box most of the time!

I realise, now more than ever before, that I'm not going to ever find a substitute for sitting at a concert grand. But, more importantly for me, I realise now, more than ever, that I can get exceptional sound/recordings/performance/dynamics/expression etc. from a small slab of plastic and metal that cost less than a "grand" rather than a "Grand" that costs 100 X as much!

The main purpose of my posts, other than venting my fierce passion for music/musical science/musical physics/obsession?, is to help anyone who would wish to do with their keyboard/controller what I am doing with/to mine, but without the hassle of experimentation, research, measurements, analysis, mental torture! No seriously, I wish to write this stuff to make it easier for others who have either had similar problems with their boards, or wish to understand and/or modify them in the same way, or similar, by providing detailed measurements, instructions, photos and finally, a time lapse video of the whole process I will go through when I open up the my Nero for the second time to put into practice what I have been preaching! Kind of like writing a guide.

I have enjoyed the experience so far immensely and would desire that others would also enjoy any aspect(s) that would interest them.

Just one question, John, concerning repetitions. Could you measure the distance between note-on and note-off @ keyfront on a few keys and let me know the average measurement. Also, would any others of you who have the Nero, who are happy to, do the same, in order that we might see if there is a consistency or lack thereof in this area also, as with the varying conditions of cleanness (grimefreeness) - and resulting corresponding variances in velocity performances - of the sensor strips in different Nero boards. I would be exceptionally grateful.

Sincerely to all on this forum (and those unsuspecting trespassers!!!),

Regards,

Chris