OT: Best VA synth (Page 1 of 2)

Funny you should ask...

I just spent the last week researching the best option in a VA including real vs. emulated, and I finally settled on the Oberheim emulation called OP-X Pro II. I am going through all of the presets now in fact, and I feel like it is the right balance of convenience, versatility, and analog/digital warmth. They also have great presets for Prophet, Moog, Jupiter, etc., so I think you will like it.

I almost bought a Prophet VS for $1800, but it was on eBay, and I finally realized how insane that was. In fact, there is someone selling a MemoryMoog on eBay for $13,000! The prices are insane for no other reason than bragging rights...

Sonic Projects is having a sale right now, so you might want to check out the demo:

Sonic Projects OP-X

I also looked closely at the Dave Smith stuff (read reviews and listened to demos), as well as some alternative old gear, and I do own Arturia Moog Modular (which I also recommend, but it is a bit heady to program), Sample Moog (which is great too), VectorSector (one of the best Prophet VS emulations, but Augur is very good too), and a few others.

I am very pleased with my recent addition of OP-X Pro II.

JR

But you are looking after a hardware synth...aren't you ?
OP-X Pro II is software

You could look after an old/used Novation synth.
I have the Novation NOVA desktop synth and i think it has a nice warm sound and it does all the retro stuff very fine.

In terms of getting rid of your Mac on stage, I use a Receptor and midi controller...but I will upgrade to a laptop or tablet PC when the time comes. I don't see a problem with having a computer onstage rather than a rack, but you do need one or two good controllers.

JR

I did not like their Prophet V, VS, or CS-80 emulations...they were simply OK. I did like the personality of the Moog Modular though, and I got it for very cheap. I would recommend only the Moog Modular.

It was very disappointing to find that new synths (like those from Dave Smith) are very often reviewed as being "thin" compared to older analog synths. I even saw prices for old MiniMoogs higher than new Voyagers...there is an unnatural romanticizing of older synths IMO.

So it seems that you need to buy an older analog if you really want that (so called) "analog sound". You can get a decent refurbished Prophet 10 or Prophet T8 here. Be prepared to spend about $10,000 though. And then you will be so afraid to take it out of the studio that it will not meet your needs anyway.

It might be worth mentioning that the new Korg Kronos has the Oasys analog modelling engine; I have an Oasys PCI that does have some of the best (emulated) analog sounds I have heard to date. However, it's not really something I can take out on the road, so it remains mostly unused.

If Korg came out with an Oasys analog modeling keyboard I might take another look (I don't need 9 modeling engines!). In the mean time, I think soft synths are the best way to get your fix for those older sounds without spending a fortune.

There is also something from Tom Oberheim called Son of 4 Voice that starts at $3495. Soooo you need two for 8 voices...that'll be $6,990 please!

You can always peruse synthfind.com (like me!) if you want to try to find an old synth to spend a fortune on.

JR

Minimonsta is by far better emulation of the Minimoog. Arturia's filters are just incorrectly modelled andthey sound or behave nothing like the original, that's it. TAE is just another buzzword. Minimonsta is by far better, and not only to my ears.

I say, forget about Arturia. Contrary to Modartt, they don't know what they're doing. GForce, u-he, VAZ Modular... they all sound gazillion times better than any Arturia product. I hear nothing "superior" in their products, as you say.

Your original post asked "What would you suggest for best VA synthesizer for emulating those old analog synthesizers like Moog, old Rolands (like Jupiter, Juno), Prophet?"... I don't think you are going to find a lot of this in the Nord line (it's wave based, correct?).

So basically you want a synth that has lot's of knobs, can produce good analog sounds, has onboard FX, and is inexpensive? Don't we all!

You might want to take a look at the PolyEvolver or the Prophet 08.  They have limited FX, but they have "tons of knobs". The PolyEvolver only has 4 voices by the way, but there is an expansion for $1,599.

Please let us know what you find.

JR

I had DSI Tetra for some time  but obviously 4 voices wasn't enough for me and also lack of FX. Anyway main thing for selling it was its lack of knobs and also bugs in its editor.

Still I disagree with Mr.Dragon about Arturia; sound is not that bad. Their main problems and lack of know-how deals more with experience with making hardware. I don't trust Origins build quality.

Anybody here familiar with Virus? Does it give you (also) classic vintage sounds? I don't mind if it can do many other things as well but still I want to have my favorite moogish leads and pads. In fact this is the way I tend to measure those machines. First I take just one oscillator saw or pulse and tweak my simple jazzlead to check the basic parameters and how does it sound. I have played real moog so I have an idea what I wanna hear.

(And if you want to know what has been on of the biggest disappointments to me, was Roland Gaia; I know it's not trying to be Moog, it's more like SH-101, but still... I had it for testing for couple of days and I could not get a single decent sound from it)

It does look good, but I read a few comments about "bugs" and "unreliable for live" on one of the forums (Gearslutz I think).

I ordered a PolyEvolver to see if it does anything for me, and I am going to compare it extensively to softsynths too. I'll let you know...

JR

To chime in here, Arturia seems to be more concerned with making their softsynths look like the original as opposed to sound like the original. There is this overall sameness to the character of their synths, and they truly don't come close in their goal of emulating the original. The CS-80V and JP-8 in particular are very disappointing. I get much better CS-80 emulations out of U-He's Zebra2, for instance.

CS-80 is one elusive beast. The only softsynth that I've heard does the best emulations of it (and even that was a far cry) are VAZ Modular and Zebra 2.

Not disappointed at all (and not surprised).

In fact it confirms what I just did...I returned a 'real' analog synth because I am quite satisfied with what I have. Don't get me wrong; real analog sounds great, but not phenomenally better justifying the cost. I got rid of my racks of outboard gear and 'wall of synthesizers ' years ago, so now I am used to the convenience and increased workflow, productivity, etc. with my 'emulated' hardware. It felt like a step backwards.

Another problem was the limitation of voices. We should have 32 voice analog synths today (at a reasonable price). And midi should have been replaced with something faster by now (midi is 31k baud!). If synthesizer technology advanced like personal computers did we would have 500 voice analog keyboards with terabyte networking. Instead, we have 35 year old electronic keyboards selling for $12,000 like they are fine wine or something...they're synths not Picassos!

JR

Definitely not an easy task. At least not at an affordable price. Remember Alesis Andromeda? It's 16 voices at two oscillators per voice, and it was not quite cheap.

But, boy, does it - all over any VA out there...

Andromeda is very close to that!

And probably one of the last ones to achieve what it achieved...

PolyEvolver is not really good for emulating old vintage synths - its main power are digital waveform oscillators, the fact that you have 2 analog and 2 digital oscillators (this is 4 osc per voice, that IS sick and powerful!). It is a really really flexible board, it does sound great, but is not the silver bullet and will not cut it for everyone. I love how rough it can go - that's its specialty - cold, but fat, but cutting sound.

Now believing this can kill you.

I know I'm not always right. But I believe the man who did so much for synthesizer industry can't be wrong a lot. DSI stuff is remarkable, just not everyone's cup of tea. I, for one, like the way of chaining their instrument. You can have one PEK and just upgrade the voice count by getting PERs (racks). Yes it does cost a bit, but in that case you have a LOT of oscillator power at your disposal. 16 voices is 64 oscillators - that's PHAT!

If I may chime in here…

I did have a number of analog synths when there weren't any emulations (early 90s). I sold them all because they could do some sounds very nicely but not exacly enough of what I needed. The DX7 was far more versatile and usable to me, as was the Korg Wavestation. Of course that's apples and oranges, but digital is much more versatile and can deliver more "polished" sounds. Contrary to analog which always needs more processing. That was a serious consideration in the 90s when we did not have endless EQ on our consumer mixing consoles.

I was actually quite happy to dump all that dead freight before it could bestow on me any serious maintenance costs. And I like working completely "in the box". The only remaining piece of hardware is a D-550 (not analog, but quite "analogely feeling").

While there are zillions of VST emulations, I think only few are actually comparable with real analog circuitry. The main issues is the filter, sweeps and lower cutoff settings. True analog does keep a certain "openness" with closed filter while most digital emulations get muffled and lifeless.

I just listened to the comparisons on the OP-x page and I must say it is astounding how much difference there still is in filter sweeps between hardware and emulation. And a filter is such a simple design compared to a acoustic piano (or so, they thought)!

I don't use much "analog" sounds today, but when I do it with emulations it often seems to me they are a bit too harsh. There may be exceptions and I do like the UltraAnalog by Applied Acoustic Systems for that matter, but I think by and large emulations are not quite there yet.

That said, I would never want to go back to all that bulky hardware w/o total recall, with the associated schlep and with the damocles' sword of possible electric defect in decades-old circuit boards hanging over each power-up.

And yes, there is A LOT of romanticizing involved when folks talk about "analog". It's comparable to the fascination the middle ages have for many: they like the simple lifestyle and the cozy logfires, but they ignore the faeces, the perpetual war and looting, and the black death

Omnisphere is double OT; we're talking about virtual analog

That's more like it...kinda puts the Dave Smith stuff in perspective. I don't know what he was thinking with his 4-voice concepts (I read at least 15 voices with the Solaris).

It still has to knock-my-socks-off for $4000 though, but it looks like it will. Thanks for that link.

[edit]

I spoke too soon (or posted too soon)...it's digital (VA) with some analog components. My apologies Dave...

After comparing some of the samples to my current VA sounds I really don't find it that compelling, but it is still one of the better offerings out there right now. I would really like to see a rack version though.

JR

to be honest, all the virtual/modelled analogue stuff I've dried just sounds tame and sanitized to me - I own half a dozen real analogue synths (mostly bought cheap in the 1990s when nobody else wanted them) - the best ones like my Octave Cat and Transcendent 2000 are just *nasty*.
They have tons of limitations, but then so does a violin and a piano. Limitatins are good. Real analogue synths tend to be proper musical instruments and you have to learn to play them properly and mine the best depths out of them.

A month has passed with my Arturia Origin (desktop) and I must say I'm still VERY fascinated about it. In short, I have a strong feeling that this beast keeps me busy for a long time. There're so many things to tweak, enough power and polyphony, so for sure I am not missing any real analog or software at the moment. I must also admit, that I have never had such a feeling with any software emulation. Origin has some strange "warmness" which I never experienced with Arturia's plugins for example. Basically I am not too much worried how much does it sound like real Minimoog or Jupiter 8 (which are the templates in it at the moment. Waiting for updates for more ). Still I believe that we're close. For me it's enough to have fun with it and enjoy its sound and feeling of playing it. Also I have a feeling that I've just scratched the surface; there're many possibilities still unrealized.

For example I made a synth which has nine JP8-oscillators detuned and ran through filters and lfos and finally three part effect section. And I can play this homemade-supersawbeast with my righthand with another multisawsynthpad in my lefthand and Origin can handle this without trouble. Those of us who are crazy enough to make experiments like this, Origin is a marvelous thing. Anyway for myself old analogs cannot compete with this close-enough emulation with such a power... Of course I am just speaking for myself; everyone here has his own priorities and standards. On the other hand I have a feeling that someone must say sometimes something positive about Arturia; It seems to be kind of a fashion to dismiss this company....

('real' analog keyboards)
Moog Opus 3
Yamaha CS20M
Sequential Circuits 6 trak
Electro Harmonnix Mini

(honorable mention)
Yamaha CP35
Roland CR-78
Rhodes 88

(etc.)
much of the Ensoniq and Kurzweil stuff

It's typically the analog pad stuff that I reminisce about...the 6-trak also allowed stacking, so it had some really big sounds. The Yamaha CP35 had a connector for direct connection to the CS70M...I always lusted for that, the Prophet VS, and the Prophet T8. The things I do not miss are the lack of midi, the osc drift, lack of integration, the weight, repair, etc.

With some of my more recent (and more commercial) plugins, I do find that I can recreate those sounds, and even surpass them. I personally tend to glamorize the 'old analog' sounds, and I have to refresh my memory by actually comparing them to current plugins...works every time.

I also have a Korg Oasys pci that has unsurpassed analog emulation IMO....sadly, I rarely use it because I feel like it is 'outboard' gear. The convenience of plugins is just too compelling (did I mention convenient?) for me. I can get inspired just fine with Reaktor, OPX, Minimonsta, Moog Modular, Oasys, SampleMoog and a few others. However, I did do a lot of analog stuff when I had those 'real' keyboards, so maybe it is just proximity (making use of what you have).

I can't really  think of any advantage with analog, but I will agree that there is a customer for both. I am still looking for that "grit and magic" in a new keyboard, but everything seems to fall short. What are you using? The OP seems to have found his "magic" with the Arturia Origin. I always did like the idea of mixing and matching the bits to make something new, but I have Reaktor (not in the same class obviously, but similar capability).

I agree...that Rhodes 88 I used for gigging weighed quite a bit, and now I just use the Pianoteq Rhodes expansion with my Receptor. Now that is magical!

JR

The CS20M had 2 VCOs, and I am quite familiar with complicated modulation...how else would I use Reaktor and my Arturia Moog Modular? I do agree, they were not "major league", but the analog circuitry was the same (generally). It's the sound of a real oscillator compared to a digital oscillator that is my point of comparison (not modulation), and the Moog and SC (and Yamaha) were certainly valid for that reference.

In terms of a more recent reference, I recently returned my Dave Smith Poly Evolver (rack) because it did not blow me away compared to my plugins. The modulation was certainly powerful, but it is not suited to producing 'pads' with only 4 voices. Yes, it can be expanded, but that seems cumbersome to me. He couldn't make it at least 6 voices? I am sure many people love it though.

I admit that real analog filters have some advantage over most VAs ( the Oasys sounds very good however ), but it's not enough to be compelling for me. Maybe just one analog keyboard (with poly-aftertouch) to sit beside my Numa. That Oberheim stuff looked interesting, but again, only 4 voices (and for almost $4,000!).

Your Octave Cat mod sounds intriguing...was that a factory mod or something you did yourself? Can you upload something that I could use for comparison? I guess I am saying that I accept your challenge!

JR

I didn't know that Microsoft did analog synths before they did Windows :-)