Topic by mistertomlinson

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Topic: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

I've updated this thread, as well as this post below.

OK, so I'm using the PTQ trial and I really wanna like it, but I just can't get it to sound good. I play a Yamaha P85 (weighted keys) through a MOTU Ultralite FireWire Audio Interface using an iMac with 4GBs of RAM and a 2.8 GHz Core 2 Extreme. The transmit and receive channels for my P85 and Ultralite match, I've turned Local Control off and I've adjusted the velocity curve using the curve found in these forums for the P85... yet, PTQ still sounds bad. It sounds muddy to me. Not clear or crisp as some of the demos I've heard. Midi files (not played through my DP) played though PTQ sound great using all of the presets, but when playing directly from my DP, the sound is underwhelming. I've adjusted every perimeter, but it only seems to make it worse, so I'm posting links to the mp3 file (using the default K1 preset with the P85 velocity curve) and the midi file alone and hope someone can give me some pointers or provide the preset they've developed. Any help would be appreciated. (FYI, I just started learning to play, so it's nothing fancy)

I would recommend using headphones.

MP3: http://www.box.net/shared/2zygox3yrz

Midi: http://www.box.net/shared/dmmnpxbicq

UPDATE:

OK... I've changed my mind. I went ahead and bought the full version of Pianoteq, learned the perimeters a little better and my final conclusion has changed drastically.

I play most while wearing headphones. The headphones I was using are anything but "studio reference" and as a result, made Pianoteq sound warmer than it should. I have a couple pairs of custom (in-ear) monitors that I don't use because the cable isn't long enough to play comfortably. One pair in particular are very flat and don't color the sound at all. As a result, the sound is much brighter and favorable to my ears. Aside from that, I also realized "Sound Recording" wasn't a good choice as "Stereophonic" yielded a significantly better sound through my monitors.

I also discovered, to my ears, the Erard preset was closest to the original recording of "Big My Secret." After much A/B'ing and tweaking, I have managed to come up with what I believe is a very close model and recording of the original.

My final efforts produced the following:

This is my final recording through Pianoteq (it's in no way perfect as I still need a lot of practice. This is the first song I've learned on piano. There are a few sour notes throughout, but I ran out of patience trying to get a perfect "take"): http://www.box.net/shared/xot716onbc

Also, if anyone's interested, here's my preset: http://www.box.net/shared/a7kxrkhlc5

... and finally, the midi file (for anyone interested): http://www.box.net/shared/nmiqg73u6s

Last edited by mistertomlinson (30-03-2011 17:28)

Reply by johnrule

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

mistertomlinson wrote:

but I just can't get it to sound good

What is your reference of "good"? Post a recording of what you consider good...you also might want to try any of the "Close Mic" presets.

JR

Reply by mistertomlinson

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

I've tried every preset, including the close mic presets for each model. I'm just dissatisfied with them all.

As for my idea of "good," well for a start, here's the original song: http://www.box.net/shared/onuvjarcth
It's much brighter, cleaner and crisp sounding. I'm not saying the piano used in that recording is the best, but I'd be happy with a similar sound.

But basically, the sound I've managed to achieve doesn't sound realistic to me.

Reply by Gilles

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

Listening to the original piece, I find it has more varying dynamics which helps get that crisp sound, but still you play it very well for a beginner

I tried your midi file with the latest fxp I uploaded, and using the Slow or Moderately Slow velocity curve to increase the dynamics, it sounds better. You may want to try it (the free Pleyel needs to be loaded first)

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...127%29.fxp

EDIT: I uploaded a rendering:
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...on-Big.mp3

Last edited by Gilles (13-01-2011 15:52)

Reply by johnrule

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

mistertomlinson wrote:

But basically, the sound I've managed to achieve doesn't sound realistic to me.

To be totally blunt, this is about playing technique. The other recording shows dynamics and passion that you are just not reproducing in your playing...

Now that you are totally infuriated with me, go record that anger into the piece and see if it helps! You also might want to turn up the "Forte" setting on your "Hammer Hardness" and increase your velocity curve so that you can more easily get those dynamics happening with your playing style.

JR

Reply by sigasa

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.php?file=help.fxp

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.php?file=Big.mp3

What touch setting do you have your P85 set to? I had to use the
default 'Moderately Slow Keyboard' velocity curve in Pianoteq. I'm
sure you're not using 'soft touch' on you're P85! Have you got it set
to medium or hard touch?

Let me know if I can help further,

Chris

Last edited by sigasa (13-01-2011 15:42)

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

Well, I have to say that I like the sound of the piano on both the reference file (from a real piano) and the PTQ recording.

I agree that they don't similar, but of course the PTQ instrument was modelled from an entirely different instrument (and the reverb is stronger in the PTQ recording, and the mics are in different positions) so the two instruments are not going to sound the same. Do you know what piano was used for the reference file? If you can determine the make and model, that will give you, and all of us, a point of departure. (Do you by any chance own the piano used for the reference recording?)

Reply by sigasa

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

Nice one Jake! Good advice.

Reply by johnrule

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

johnrule wrote:

turn up the "Forte" setting on your "Hammer Hardness" and increase your velocity curve so that you can more easily get those dynamics happening with your playing style.

Actually, I was assuming that you did not play the "good" recording. If you did indeed play both, it is all about dynamics as I stated above...

JR

Reply by mistertomlinson

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

johnrule wrote:
mistertomlinson wrote:

But basically, the sound I've managed to achieve doesn't sound realistic to me.

To be totally blunt, this is about playing technique. The other recording shows dynamics and passion that you are just not reproducing in your playing...

Now that you are totally infuriated with me, go record that anger into the piece and see if it helps! You also might want to turn up the "Forte" setting on your "Hammer Hardness" and increase your velocity curve so that you can more easily get those dynamics happening with your playing style.

JR

I swear I'm not insulted and I understand I haven't been playing long but in my defense, it's not my technique. I can play this using my Yamaha P 85 without PTQ, and it actually sounds BETTER... regardless of technique. This is the sound I'm talking about. I understand what you're suggesting and I thank you for helping, but it's not the varying velocity that is creating the sound I'm dissatisfied with.

(Sidenote: I hadn't intended to post my recording online and was only slapping together a quick recording to play continuously while adjusting every perimeter available. If i had recorded it knowing it would be posted here, I would have done better )

BTW, I even cheated, adjusting the velocity so that my softer notes were in fact played harder, but I still wasn't happy.

And Giles, thanks for the help, but unfortunately I can't install free add-ons with the demo version. It's in the FAQ.

Reply by sigasa

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

touch mistertomlinson?

Last edited by sigasa (13-01-2011 15:53)

Reply by Gilles

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

mistertomlinson wrote:

And Giles, thanks for the help, but unfortunately I can't install free add-ons with the demo version. It's in the FAQ.

I uploaded a rendering anyway for you.

Reply by sigasa

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

sorry Gilles, didn't see your earlier post re Mod. slow curve!

that'll teach me to make sure I've read all the posts in a thread!!!

Last edited by sigasa (13-01-2011 16:00)

Reply by johnrule

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

mistertomlinson wrote:

I can play this using my Yamaha P 85 without PTQ, and it actually sounds BETTER... regardless of technique. This is the sound I'm talking about. I understand what you're suggesting and I thank you for helping, but it's not the varying

There is an .fxp in the files section called "C3mix_intimate04.fxp" that might help.

JR

Reply by DonSmith

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

mistertomlinson wrote:

I've tried every preset, including the close mic presets for each model. I'm just dissatisfied with them all.

As for my idea of "good," well for a start, here's the original song: http://www.box.net/shared/onuvjarcth
It's much brighter, cleaner and crisp sounding. I'm not saying the piano used in that recording is the best, but I'd be happy with a similar sound.

But basically, the sound I've managed to achieve doesn't sound realistic to me.

Is this link taken from the original recording?
As far as I know its also called "Scent of Love" by Michael Nyman for the film "The Piano", which featured a Bosendorfer.

YouTube Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZS9gTQNE1Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXq4qQxs...re=related

Last edited by DonSmith (13-01-2011 19:51)

Reply by mistertomlinson

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

sigasa wrote:

touch mistertomlinson?

I had it on medium for a while, but recently changed it to hard, assuming it would have a more realistic response.

Seeing as how you have a P 85, could you let me know of anything I might have missed when setting it up. Not necessarily in Pianoteq, but maybe I've missed something on the P 85 itself.

Also, could FireWire 400 be the culprit? I understand it's a tad bit slower than USB 2.0 and it's how I've currently got my audio interface hooked up.

And yes, DonSmith, that link is the original recording and I didn't realize that was a Bosendorfer. It's a shame I can't try out that preset. EDIT: Oops, I was thinking of Ivory.

Giles, that preset definitely sounds better. Thanks for doing that for me.

Last edited by mistertomlinson (14-01-2011 04:32)

Reply by Glenn NK

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

Another try.

http://www.box.net/shared/3rfklo22zu

Glenn

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Reply by sigasa

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

mistertomlinson wrote:
sigasa wrote:

touch mistertomlinson?

I had it on medium for a while, but recently changed it to hard, assuming it would have a more realistic response.

Seeing as how you have a P 85, could you let me know of anything I might have missed when setting it up. Not necessarily in Pianoteq, but maybe I've missed something on the P 85 itself.

I actually don't have a Yamaha P85, but a Yamaha CP33. They have differing actions. The P85 has a GHS actions, whereas the CP33 has a GHE action. I have set up the following velocity curve/.fxp for use with the CP33, but you may wish to try it with your P85 and see how you get on with it. It may so be that it works equally well with the GHS action also?

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...ttings.fxp

Velocity = [18, 32, 45, 80, 94, 110, 127; 0, 13, 29, 92, 109, 121, 127]

Use the 'Medium Touch' setting on your P85

Last edited by sigasa (14-01-2011 11:30)

Reply by erichlof

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

Hi mistertomlinson,

I had a go at it.  Here's the mp3:
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.php
Here's the target Bosendorfer:
http://www.box.net/shared/onuvjarcth

I think the Pleyel is the "man" for the job here.  It has a bright punchy upper register that I didn't have to alter too much in the pro version.  However, being modeled after a historic small grand piano, the Pleyel bass strings have high inharmonicity (like an upright) which I had to tweak to get to sound 'bassy' and pure enough to pass for a Bosendorfer grand.

It would be nice if we could have the Pleyel's treble and the C3is's Steinway bass with low inharmonicity.  Maybe we will be able to split the keyboard down the middle in the future.
Mistertomlinson, if you cannot use the Pleyel fxps inside your version, maybe you would consider the Standard version for a future purchase.  It opens up a lot of possibilities.  When you are able to play the Pleyel model, let me know and I will post the fxp.

Good luck with your Pianoteq adventures!  :-)

Reply by DonSmith

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

erichlof wrote:

Hi mistertomlinson,

I had a go at it.  Here's the mp3:
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.php
Here's the target Bosendorfer:
http://www.box.net/shared/onuvjarcth

I think the Pleyel is the "man" for the job here.  It has a bright punchy upper register that I didn't have to alter too much in the pro version.  However, being modeled after a historic small grand piano, the Pleyel bass strings have high inharmonicity (like an upright) which I had to tweak to get to sound 'bassy' and pure enough to pass for a Bosendorfer grand.

It would be nice if we could have the Pleyel's treble and the C3is's Steinway bass with low inharmonicity.  Maybe we will be able to split the keyboard down the middle in the future.
Mistertomlinson, if you cannot use the Pleyel fxps inside your version, maybe you would consider the Standard version for a future purchase.  It opens up a lot of possibilities.  When you are able to play the Pleyel model, let me know and I will post the fxp.

Good luck with your Pianoteq adventures!  :-)

Nice playing. Could you do a MIDI version?
I like the idea about creating hybrid pianos.

Reply by mistertomlinson

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

My DP's default reverb settings couldn't effect midi data, could it?

Reply by Glenn NK

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

mistertomlinson wrote:

My DP's default reverb settings couldn't effect midi data, could it?

No, and to be sure I looked at the Event List in your Big.mid file.

There are no reverb settings in it.

The only odd thing in the file is that the half pedal values are 56.  Normally they are 64 (128/2=64).  These are generated by your keyboard when you record the midi file while playing.

Glenn

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Reply by mistertomlinson

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

Glenn NK wrote:
mistertomlinson wrote:

My DP's default reverb settings couldn't effect midi data, could it?

No, and to be sure I looked at the Event List in your Big.mid file.

There are no reverb settings in it.

The only odd thing in the file is that the half pedal values are 56.  Normally they are 64 (128/2=64).  These are generated by your keyboard when you record the midi file while playing.

Glenn

What could be the result of the lower value? Is it something that could effect the sound significantly?

So, I take it everything else in the Event List looks normal?

And, is it correct to assume the ONLY setting that I should be concerned with on my DP is the velocity setting? It seems that's the only setting that has an effect on midi data?

Last edited by mistertomlinson (17-01-2011 02:33)

Reply by Glenn NK

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

mistertomlinson wrote:
Glenn NK wrote:
mistertomlinson wrote:

My DP's default reverb settings couldn't effect midi data, could it?

No, and to be sure I looked at the Event List in your Big.mid file.

There are no reverb settings in it.

The only odd thing in the file is that the half pedal values are 56.  Normally they are 64 (128/2=64).  These are generated by your keyboard when you record the midi file while playing.

Glenn

What could be the result of the lower value? Is it something that could effect the sound significantly?

So, I take it everything else in the Event List looks normal?

And, is it correct to assume the ONLY setting that I should be concerned with on my DP is the velocity setting? It seems that's the only setting that has an effect on midi data?

The pedal control value is determined by your piano - it shouldn't matter that it generates a value of 56 rather than 64 - many pianos only generate zero and 127 (no pedal and full pedal).  And some pianos send continuously variable values (my Roland KR7 does).

Everything else looks normal.

First, Pianoteq simply interprets what's in the midi file (it can't affect the file). I believe that the piano only interprets what and how you play the keys and pedals, and records these "events" into a midi file (as you know, midi is not music - just instructions to the "instruments" on what and how to play notes).

In Pianoteq, you can also set the pedal sensitivity.  At the very bottom of the panel, click on Velocity and it will toggle through three charts - Velocity, Note-Off and Pedal.

If you can find your piano in the other forum (Keyboard Velocity Curves), you can set the profile to match your keyboard.  Mine is one of the few that's essentially linear from lower left to upper right.  Many are not.  And this will affect the response when you play.

Glenn

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Reply by mistertomlinson

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

OK... I've changed my mind. I went ahead and bought the full version of Pianoteq, learned the perimeters a little better and my final conclusion has changed drastically.

I play most while wearing headphones. The headphones I was using are anything but "studio reference" and as a result, made Pianoteq sound warmer than it should. I have a couple pairs of custom (in-ear) monitors that I don't use because the cable isn't long enough to play comfortably. One pair in particular are very flat and don't color the sound at all. As a result, the sound is much brighter and favorable to my ears. Aside from that, I also realized "Sound Recording" wasn't a good choice as "Stereophonic" yielded a significantly better sound through my monitors.

I also discovered, to my ears, the Erard preset was closest to the original recording of "Big My Secret." After much A/B'ing and tweaking, I have managed to come up with what I believe is a very close model and recording of the original.

My final efforts produced the following:

This is my final recording through Pianoteq (it's in no way perfect as I still need a lot of practice. This is the first song I've learned on piano. There are a few sour notes throughout, but I ran out of patience trying to get a perfect "take"): http://www.box.net/shared/xot716onbc

Also, if anyone's interested, here's my preset: http://www.box.net/shared/a7kxrkhlc5

... and finally, the midi file (for anyone interested): http://www.box.net/shared/nmiqg73u6s

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

Thanks for posting these. Your preset and recording sound very, very good.  And love the sound of the Erard, in general. One of my favorite PT instruments.

Reply by Philippe Guillaume

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

Thank you Tomlinson for this very nice recording!

You are welcome to post your fxp (as well as your midi and audio files) in the fxp corner that we recently redesigned to try making it more friendly. If ever you have some critics concerning the fxp corner, please do not hesitate telling us, we will be happy to do our best for improving it.

Philippe Guillaume's Website

Reply by erichlof

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Re: I challenge you to make my midi file not sound like crap. I need help.

Hi mistertomlinson,
Very nice playing and great work with the fxp design! 

I noticed that you mentioned that you got impatient trying to get that 'perfect' take.  Although I didn't hear any sour notes in your playing, I understand your frustration!  I have been in the same situation, until recently.  If I may, I would like to make a recommendation for some cheap software that would allow you the freedom of making a perfect midi file in your eyes.

I recently purchased Reaper for a small price of $40 USD.  It has a really nice midi editor built in that is powerful and user friendly at the same time.  Like you, I would get frustrated if I recorded a particularly inspired track, only to realize later I had missed a couple of obvious notes, or hit a key too hard, or sped up the tempo without knowing it.  Well, all of this is easily correctable within the Reaper midi editor.  You can change pitches, or bump velocities precisely up and down, and correct overall tempo changes (you can even quantize rhythms to a grid or time signature if your fingers went a little astray on an otherwise great take). 

Knowing I have this capability for later easy processing and editing, gives me the freedom to record how I feel at the moment without worrying too much about trying to play a flawless performance.  Some musicians view it as cheating, but in my opinion: if we have the technology, why not use it to our advantage?  In my view it is the end result that is important.  And if a couple of small errors get in the way of this end result and the emotional impact I want to make on the listener, why not eliminate the obstacles?

The money spent on Reaper has been worth every penny. One more thing: Reaper loves Pianoteq - you can even have multiple instances of Pianoteq running at the same time!  This offers the possibility of AB'ing two presets or even two completely different models instantaneously, instead of waiting for a single Pianoteq to switch gears during a midi file performance. 

I apologize if I am telling you stuff you already know (or if you already own a midi editor).  I just wish I would have known much earlier about these capabilities for my own projects.  It would have eliminated a lot of headaches. 

Congrats on your Pianoteq purchase and thanks again for posting!
-Erich