Anyone else think that it would be cool to have pianoteq do that high pitched squerky noise that comes when the dampers are softly released upon the strings? Dunno if you know what I mean, you can here it quite good in the song "Forces" by the bad plus
Just a thought
How realistic should Pianoteq be?
This has been discussed previously (although not on this particular aspect of damper noise when they are lifted). Modartt has also contributed some comments about the physical design limitations of a real acoustic piano.
It's a very difficult problem - as most people realize, the piano is not a perfectly designed instrument - it came about by evolution, not divine revolution.
The perfect piano would never go out of tune, nor would the hammers become hard with use. In fact, there are many features of the acoustic piano that would have been eliminated if it was physically possible. Another "feature" is hammer noise - what is particularly musical about hammer noise? If you want clicking and thumping noises, why not let the drummer do that?
In a perfect piano, it's likely that all strings would be the same length so as to all have the same sustaining power. Imagine a saxophone in which higher pitched notes couldn't be sustained as long as lower ones.
But if they were longer the tensile force required to raise their pitch would break the strings, and the frame wouldn't be strong enough (well it could be made strong enough, but it would be heavier than a house).
With Pianoteq we have a method of producing the sounds an acoustic piano could (or wouldn't) if it was physically possible. We can remove the thumping noise of the action, our hammers can be adjusted very easily (voicing takes hours).
In a perfect piano, the dampers would not emit any sound at all, nor would any part of the action emit any sound/noise. Is there a musical reason that the sound of 200 plus strings resonating in full disharmony should be incorporated?
I've never found the noise of a guitarist's fingers sliding on the strings to be particularly pleasurable, but they just can't get rid of that sound.
Glenn
But hey Glenn, isn't a real piano so so beautiful?!!!
How realistic should Pianoteq be?
This has been discussed previously (although not on this particular aspect of damper noise when they are lifted). Modartt has also contributed some comments about the physical design limitations of a real acoustic piano.
It's a very difficult problem - as most people realize, the piano is not a perfectly designed instrument - it came about by evolution, not divine revolution.
The perfect piano would never go out of tune, nor would the hammers become hard with use. In fact, there are many features of the acoustic piano that would have been eliminated if it was physically possible. Another "feature" is hammer noise - what is particularly musical about hammer noise? If you want clicking and thumping noises, why not let the drummer do that?
In a perfect piano, it's likely that all strings would be the same length so as to all have the same sustaining power. Imagine a saxophone in which higher pitched notes couldn't be sustained as long as lower ones.
But if they were longer the tensile force required to raise their pitch would break the strings, and the frame wouldn't be strong enough (well it could be made strong enough, but it would be heavier than a house).
With Pianoteq we have a method of producing the sounds an acoustic piano could (or wouldn't) if it was physically possible. We can remove the thumping noise of the action, our hammers can be adjusted very easily (voicing takes hours).
In a perfect piano, the dampers would not emit any sound at all, nor would any part of the action emit any sound/noise. Is there a musical reason that the sound of 200 plus strings resonating in full disharmony should be incorporated?
I've never found the noise of a guitarist's fingers sliding on the strings to be particularly pleasurable, but they just can't get rid of that sound.
Glenn
I do understand what you are saying and you sort of make a good point, but, isn't the point of pianoteq to have a digital instrument that is so much like the real deal as possible? since many simply don't have access to a grand piano.. And obviously everyone doesn't need these "realism noises" since in most cases they simply drown in the mix but for certain types of airy simplistic music they can be very important.. since, imho music isn't always about "planned" musical notes..
Like last year I recorded a song with acoustic guitar and occasionally it had some strange unintentional string noise, that in the mix sounded just like someone playing citar far away in the background.
So, how realistic should it be? imo as realistic as you can possibly make it! sound wise that is, not automatic wear and tear...
I'm pretty sure this squerky noise would be pretty hard to emulate tho but who doesn't like a challenge?
I have to admit that I like many of the creaks and wood-rubbing-against-wood sounds that an old or neglected piano may have. They give the piano a more distinct, or less popular, identity than is wanted on a concert stage.
A few of my favorites:
The rusty spring sound of part of the mechanism that moves the shafts. One of the defining sounds of an old piano.
The wood and felt sound of some dampers as they hit the strings. Not the pedal, but the damper itself.
Bent or misaligned hammer shafts that cause the felt to scrape against other felt just before the hammer hits the strings.
The sound of the key hitting the key bed. Varies a lot according to the thickness of the felt.
I like all the extraneous sounds, even though they could be considered "defects". I prefer to think of them as acoustic beauty spots - defects, but somehow, adding beauty.
Greg.
Hello All,
I would like to repeat a quip stated a few months ago in this forum:
"Listening for <fill in the artifact of your choice> in a modeled piano is similar to looking for bird s**t inside a cuckoo clock!"
Happy New Year,
Joe
Thanks Joe, and Happy New Year to you and your family.
Jake, I'm sure if you drive out to Vancouver Island, we can round up a few more of the beauties that you like so much. Some of these babies are worth less than their equivalent weight in firewood (firewood is already cut into usable lengths and split).
Right now, I'm going to have a look in the cuckoo clock - it's been in storage for quite a few years, and who knows what might be in there now.
Glenn
Wouldn't it be sort of cool if every copy of Pianoteq was unique, just like every real piano is? Support might be an issue.
Greg.
Although I see the point of Glenn's post above, I'd also say that it "can't get realistic enough".
I feel that the more "odd, funky bits of realism" are present in an instrument emulation, the more inspiring it is to play, as a single note can express so much more if it's "multi-faceted and rich of details".
The only thing which seems to be of great importance is that the amount to which each of this funky bits are added can be controlled by the user (fortunately, this seems to have always been natural to the Modartt team ).
BTW, there is an Italian programmer of VST plugins (Genuine Soundware) who has developed an awesome modelled Hammond plugin called VB3 and one of his advertising tags is "imperfection is a feature"...
And what would a perfect Hammond organ sound like? Like a couple of pure sine waves stacked upon each other...horrible thought!
Oh yes...certainly an intersting idea, Greg. Though I dislike the idea of having to buy a second copy of pianoteq, cause mine doesn't sound that good... xD
Well, this piano has a lot of flaws, partly brought out by the relatively close mics, but is it only firewood?
http://www.youtube.com/user/latribe#p/s...9vbJxPhN3Y
Tuned to an unequal temperament, by the way. A well temp., I think.
But this example is unfair? I do take the point that a good, well-regulated piano is better than an old wreck of a piano. But there are some old pianos out there that gain beauty with age and the effects of time...And some sample libraries make a point of being based on aged pianos, even being advertising as old, if not exactly coo-coo clock befouling instruments.
(OT: There are several other videos of that piano played at Emeson College (UK) on that site. Some beautiful Liszt pieces and another Schumann piece. Some of them bring out the flaws in the instrument more than the above video.)
What are perhaps the devs take on this? then I mostly refer to what I started the thread with, damper to a vibrating string noise which all pianos have. New, as old and worn.
then I mostly refer to what I started the thread with, damper to a vibrating string noise which all pianos have. New, as old and worn.
Do you mean the buzzy sound that can sometimes occur, if the dampers are lowered slowly? That would be a cool thing, yes.
Greg.
Rytmenpinne wrote:then I mostly refer to what I started the thread with, damper to a vibrating string noise which all pianos have. New, as old and worn.
Do you mean the buzzy sound that can sometimes occur, if the dampers are lowered slowly? That would be a cool thing, yes.
Greg.
That is precisely what I mean
You have several controls on the noise produced by the dampers falling back on the strings. These controls are:
Damper position in the action panel (pianoteq standard and pro versions). The damper position determines the overtones that are badly dampened. These overtones are approximately multiples of the string length ratio where the damper lies. For example if the damper lies at 1/7th of the string, then overtones 7, 14, 21 … will be badly dampened.
Damping duration in the action panel (pianoteq standard and pro). The longer the duration, the more the badly dampened overtones keep on ringing.
Damper noise in the NE window (pianoteq pro only).
These effects are mostly noticeable when releasing the key slowly (which requires a keyboard sending note-off velocity and setting an appropriate note-off curve in the velocity panel (click several times on the velocity button to display the note-off curve)), or when releasing slowly the sustain pedal (requires a progressive pedal).
Doh. ;^) (I had completely forgot about it, probably because I don't have release velocity, and just put it out of my mind!)
Thanks!
Greg.
I learned to play on an old Dominion piano (made in Toronto, ON, Canada). At the time I knew it was old, but never really pursued it. It had belonged to my grandmother, and possibly to her mother.
Considering that:
a) My mother was born in 1915,
b) There are Dominion pianos that were built circa 1900 that have newer styling than "our" Dominion, it's quite apparent that the piano dated fairly well back into the 1800's.
c) The styling of the topic piano looks newer and cleaner than the Dominion.
Our family piano had been played a lot (my grandmother and mother were piano teachers), so it was an interesting piece of furniture full of junk parts.
The reason for my rambling, is to illustrate why I don't have much use for unregulated, clickety-clackety, squeaky, thumpy pianos - I've spent too much time on them already.
The subject piano introduced by Mario is interesting and parts of the sound are OK, but it reminds me too much of the piano I grew up on.
Glenn
You have several controls on the noise produced by the dampers falling back on the strings. These controls are:
Damper position in the action panel (pianoteq standard and pro versions). The damper position determines the overtones that are badly dampened. These overtones are approximately multiples of the string length ratio where the damper lies. For example if the damper lies at 1/7th of the string, then overtones 7, 14, 21 … will be badly dampened.
Damping duration in the action panel (pianoteq standard and pro). The longer the duration, the more the badly dampened overtones keep on ringing.
Damper noise in the NE window (pianoteq pro only).
These effects are mostly noticeable when releasing the key slowly (which requires a keyboard sending note-off velocity and setting an appropriate note-off curve in the velocity panel (click several times on the velocity button to display the note-off curve)), or when releasing slowly the sustain pedal (requires a progressive pedal).
Aah yes, but this isn't the actual noise I'm refering to, what you explained here is that dampening a vibrating string in different places are going to leave some overtones ringing do to the very nature of how waves work. The noise I'm referring to is that squerky or buzz noise as skip called it, that comes from the strings actually repeatedly hitting the damper. I expect this is probably very hard to do, but, I do feel the damper has sort of like a "fade out" character to it.. And I do have a half pedal or rather 4 different levels, so not fully continuous but still not just on/off.
And the NE window I haven't tried since I only have the play version and there don't seem to be a demo of pro..
oh and Philippe, I also have a totally unrelated question if you happen to pop by again; If I later were to upgrade from play to the standard version, will I get an additional year of free updates?
Thank you for your time.
If I increase the Damper Duration in Pianoteq, to make the damping sound longer, and more pronounced, it sounds quite similar to the buzzy sound I was referring to. Perhaps it does not quite have the same "bite" of the real sound, but it's not that far off.
EDIT: Ok, comparing with sampled releases, the sampled ones sometimes have a more chaotic sound right at the beginning. Pianoteq's transition into the damped sound is very smooth - possibly smoother than the real thing. I don't have a real piano to compare with at the moment, but I have to be careful when comparing with a sampled piano, because the sampled one may not integrate the release samples with the sustain samples authentically.
Re: the song example ("Forces", by Bad Plus), I can't hear any interesting damping sounds in a YouTube recording I found, and nor did I notice any in an iTunes preview. I don't want to buy the song just so I can hear this damping effect. ;^) Do you have a publicly accessible recording you can point to?
Greg.
At 6 seconds into the preview of "Forces" ( http://itunes.apple.com/au/album/forces...=159382756 ) the damping can be heard quite clearly, but it's not really all that "buzzy" or interesting. However, is that the sound you are referring to? I think Pianoteq could get very close to that. It might help to adjust Key Release Noise too.
EDIT: Re the sampled releases (damping sounds), I had forgotten that I had cranked the volume of the releases WAY up, so I could really hear them. So, it's a CERTAINTY that I was not listening to something that was in any way authentic.
Greg.
Aah yes, but this isn't the actual noise I'm refering to, what you explained here is that dampening a vibrating string in different places are going to leave some overtones ringing do to the very nature of how waves work. The noise I'm referring to is that squerky or buzz noise as skip called it, that comes from the strings actually repeatedly hitting the damper. I expect this is probably very hard to do, but, I do feel the damper has sort of like a "fade out" character to it.. And I do have a half pedal or rather 4 different levels, so not fully continuous but still not just on/off.
And the NE window I haven't tried since I only have the play version and there don't seem to be a demo of pro..
oh and Philippe, I also have a totally unrelated question if you happen to pop by again; If I later were to upgrade from play to the standard version, will I get an additional year of free updates?
Thank you for your time.
The buzz noise itself is in the damper noise.
Concerning your other question: in each upgrade case (play->standard, play->pro, standard->pro), you are considered a new owner for the upgraded version, and thus you benefit from one year of free update calculated from the date of activation of the upgraded version.
Hope I don't go too much off topic with that post, but here's just another "funky last bit of realism" thought...
Some time ago I noticed that the hammer noise always sounds exactly the same. You can hear it pretty well when you click on a key on the GUI keyboard, hold down the mouse button, move the mouse "above" the keybaord (to assure the velocity of the notes is minimal) and then move your mouse left and right, so that a lot of notes will be triggered. Due to the low velocity you'll practically just hear the hammer noise and that it has this "machine-gun" kind of effect we know from samples (w/o round robin etc.).
I guess some kind of randomization could easily be introduced here?!? I'm not sure, whether this would actually result in any noticeable improvement, but my assumption is that it might help to create a feeling of the piano being more "alive"... if you know what I mean...
Wolfgang