Topic by Mad Maestro

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Topic: My challenge: Make PTeq sound more like wood.

My first attempt:  Use wood.

So I moved into a house with an almost completely destroyed old Kroger upright. I finished the job by removing all the strings, the action, and in fact the entire harp assembly, and let me tell you how bloody difficult it was to pull a 250 plus pound piece of cast iron out.

I'm left with a piano-husk with an intact soundboard.  I left the primary bridge on, but removed the bass bridge.  Here's what I'm doing next.

I am installing two five-inch fullrange drivers (speakers) into the soundboard at strategic points, namely on either side of the primary bridge which is, at the moment, in place.  So that means one of the drivers will be near the upper left corner and the other opposite it, where the bass bridge used to be.  The fullrange drivers I will hook up to an amp and then to my computer, where I will be running Pteq with a Studiologic sl 990 pro that fits into the keybed of the old upright perfectly.  I put the cabinetry back on and it looks like an upright. 

However the point is that this project should make it sound more like wood.  The drivers will make a lot of noise, but the aim is that they excite the soundboard thereby, producing some woody overtones.

What are your thoughts on all this stuff?  I am sorry if my words are confusing.  Once the speakers get in and I install them I will clarify with some pictures.

Reply by skip

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Re: My challenge: Make PTeq sound more like wood.

Not interested, because I don't want wood -  I want more metal. 

Seriously, though - good luck and deep down I am interested because I might be wrong and you might be right. 

Greg.

Reply by benormerod

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Re: My challenge: Make PTeq sound more like wood.

I love this idea; I wish I could do the same, but I'm taking the pianoteq route mainly as I have to wear headphones for practicing. Wooden headphones, anyone?
Personally if I had a spare upright to gut I think I'd be trying to use the existing action...

Last edited by benormerod (31-08-2010 10:28)

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Reply by Luc Henrion

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Re: My challenge: Make PTeq sound more like wood.

A few years ago, (before PianoTeq...), I dissassembled (with the help of my piano technician, as you wrote, it's not so easy!!) an old upright piano to put an Alesis QS8 synth inside, and I included a pair of (cheap) monitors inside. I removed everything, the soundboard included. It's not only the wood but the simple "visual" fact that you play on an "instrument" like this that adds A LOT to the credibility of the sound, I even took it on stage for a few performances and most of the audience didn't detect they were hearing a synth (and not the best one!). My advice: go for it !!!

Just one thing: you will probably loose a lot of treble the way you intend to put your full range speakers, they are not "omnidirectional"... I had to put a complementary pair of tweeters in front of me to get a good balance back.

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Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: My challenge: Make PTeq sound more like wood.

Have you considered leaving out the speakers and somehow driving the soundboard instead? Not sure how this would be done--just attach cables from an amp to the soundboard?

Reply by Mad Maestro

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Re: My challenge: Make PTeq sound more like wood.

Thanks for your input, my friends!

Using the action:
That sounds like an awesome idea.  The action on this particular piano was one of the most ruined parts of the whole.  However, on another instrument this could be amazing.  Maybe use some laser sensor rig to "read" the action and translate motion into midi?  We should save this idea for later.

Losing sound from the drivers:  You are right.  I think what I'll likely do is leave off the rest of the panelling so that the speakers are just right in front of me, open-baffle style.  I'll just close it up for visual effect when I'm not using it.

Driving the soundboard directly:  I think this is possible using fullrange transducers, but I have not experience with that technology.  I think I'll read up on it and try it out on a later incarnation of the electroacoustic upright!

Another option I have considered is fully removing the soundboard, cutting two large pieces from it, and using those pieces as the front-plates for a pair of large bass horn cabinets from the drivers I ordered.  It would demolish the piano aesthetic, but it may get me a better overall sound. 

Thoughts?

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: My challenge: Make PTeq sound more like wood.

Audiovisual association  !!!

Our brain can trick us, during association of image and sound.

It reamambers a bit modern computer film colorization (not the 80's works). When many people watch the modern colorized film, a good deal imagine even that it was shot in color, cause they watch image moving with sound, and those things combined made our brain believe it's real.

But when you get screengrabs and put isolated, most people who observes will spot it was artificially colorized.

I also belive it can go even futher sometimes, in case of common people. Supose you got two pianist to performe to a crowd.  You get the first one and ask hin to do a bad performance, but you will present hin as a great master of piano skill.
Then you get a second pianist, very good, and ask hin to make his best, but present hin like just a aprentice, student, with very limited skills.
I bet many people, will think the pianist presented as the great did a better performance than the one presented as a simple limited student.


Luc Henrion wrote:

A few years ago, (before PianoTeq...), I dissassembled (with the help of my piano technician, as you wrote, it's not so easy!!) an old upright piano to put an Alesis QS8 synth inside, and I included a pair of (cheap) monitors inside. I removed everything, the soundboard included. It's not only the wood but the simple "visual" fact that you play on an "instrument" like this that adds A LOT to the credibility of the sound, I even took it on stage for a few performances and most of the audience didn't detect they were hearing a synth (and not the best one!). My advice: go for it !!!

Just one thing: you will probably loose a lot of treble the way you intend to put your full range speakers, they are not "omnidirectional"... I had to put a complementary pair of tweeters in front of me to get a good balance back.

Last edited by Beto-Music (01-09-2010 00:04)

Reply by Mad Maestro

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Re: My challenge: Make PTeq sound more like wood.

I need to consult my old master about getting the most out of this idea.  I agree with you all in that having the piano look can help with the piano sound in the mind's ear.  I used to do carpentry for a hi-fi speakerman by the name of Clark Blumenstein.  His work is lauded in the audiophile world. I have a feeling that he would be able to help me get this all right on track.

Reply by creart

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Re: My challenge: Make PTeq sound more like wood.

I remember (it must be about 25 years ago or something) being on a tradeshow for audio and music equipment.
On the Roland stand they had a Grand Piano set up with the lid closed.
I started playing on it and after a while had quite a crowd surrounding me - they thought I was demoing the thing but I was just playing for fun actually, being a regular visitor myself...
After a while a Roland sales person came up and opened the lid - they had a digital piano put in the Grand case and some amplifier lying just underneath the lid...
I don't know the details of either piano and amplifier but it sounded pretty convincing, maybe also because of all other noise of surrounding stands on that show but it was very nice

Good luck on your challenge!

cheers
Hans

edit
Come to think of it - it might have been to show the 'birth' of the RD1000 digital piano, which was a huge step forward for that time....

Last edited by creart (01-09-2010 10:02)

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Reply by Mad Maestro

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Re: My challenge: Make PTeq sound more like wood.

Thanks, Hans!  The amp i'm using just got in today.  Its a pylepro pca 2, a budget amp, but I think it will be sufficient for starters.  The drivers get in tomorrow, then I can take some pictures!

Reply by Proteq

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Re: My challenge: Make PTeq sound more like wood.

Hello
Noticed that someone mentioned using the soundboard directly. You might get some info from Bruce Petros. Played one of his amps which used a soundboard instead of a speaker..very nice for getting an acoustic sound !..also I guess many of the high end digital pianos use the speaker/soundboard concept ..so hey you cant go wrong.

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Reply by sigasa

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Re: My challenge: Make PTeq sound more like wood.

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...ood%29.mp3

Pianoteq

Preset: K1 Solo Recording
Reverb: Off
_________

PSP Pianoverb

Preset: Default
____________

VST Host: Reaper

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: My challenge: Make PTeq sound more like wood.

Proteq wrote:

Hello
Noticed that someone mentioned using the soundboard directly. You might get some info from Bruce Petros. Played one of his amps which used a soundboard instead of a speaker..very nice for getting an acoustic sound !..also I guess many of the high end digital pianos use the speaker/soundboard concept ..so hey you cant go wrong.

Yes, Kawai has an electronic piano with a real soundboard. Never heard it though.

But to the original poster: don't cut holes in that soundboard. Have mercy on your poor piano.

Reply by boehnbr

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Re: My challenge: Make PTeq sound more like wood.

Mad Maestro wrote:

My first attempt:  Use wood.

So I moved into a house with an almost completely destroyed old Kroger upright. I finished the job by removing all the strings, the action, and in fact the entire harp assembly, and let me tell you how bloody difficult it was to pull a 250 plus pound piece of cast iron out.

I'm left with a piano-husk with an intact soundboard.  I left the primary bridge on, but removed the bass bridge.  Here's what I'm doing next.

I

Mad Maestro, you wouldn't happen to be playing on tour with Need to Breathe, would you?  i recently saw them opening for another act.  they had a fellow playing piano who was sitting next to the drummer playing what looked to be from the rear an upright.  but since i heard many different keyboard sounds coming from it i realized he had a digital board sitting in the cabinet.  was pretty interesting.  with all the amplification its hard to say it actually added "wood" to the sound but it created an interesting look on stage...