Topic: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

I own Pianoteq 3.5.3 and I also own the Garritan Steinway 1.03. I'm not really happy with either one. For a while, I thought the Steinway was better. Lately, I find the Pianoteq better.

But then I stumbled upon a youtube recording, of an instrument called Roland Fantom G8 (costing over $3K), and this STRONGLY reminded me of what I really want in a piano sound: a lot of overtones that "ring", without sounding harsh. Also, these overtones should sound fully integrated, not like they're pasted on. They should sound like they are an extension of the primary note, like they grow out of the primary note. And there should be a certain randomness and chaos with these overtones, just like with an acoustic piano.

Example: listen to this youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bN2NSCmhU0

Disregard the layered choir sound, focus only on the piano sound: notice the prominent overtones? Notice how they "ring"? I love that. Different notes have different "amounts" of audible overtones. Despite many attempts at tweaking, I have been unable to get anything close to this sound on Pianoteq. The "Spectrum Profile" is useless for this, it doesn't even move in the right direction, it is more for weird distortion effects, if that is what you want, it is not for  emphasizing  beautiful overtones that sound natural. 

My question is: have I overlooked anything? Is Pianoteq capable of creating such overtone-rich sounds, as heard in the youtube video? For example, at 8 seconds, he plays an 'A', then at 10 seconds, he plays an 'E': both of those notes with the right hand, both have a beautiful "sparkle" of overtones, I wish I could achieve something like that with Pianoteq.

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

Blergh, Fantom doesn't have a single good piano sound, IMHO. They're all too beefed up and compressed out and sucked out of life.


And you should be careful with Spectrum Profile - you don't really need to bump those values high - it is a very sensitive control where sometimes .2 dB boost or cut mean a lot.

You should update to latest version (3.6.3) which has the new model built in (K1), and try that one out.

Last edited by EvilDragon (17-08-2010 09:55)
Hard work and guts!

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

I like that clip a lot. Notice how the soft notes still sound warm and mellow, despite the fact that the forte playing sounds very bright and rich? Very expressive. That sound is definitely something I like.

I think the best demo I've heard of Pianoteq yet is starting to approach that kind of richness, but still doesn't reach it. (it's that demo of the guy playing in a studio through loud speakers on a controller that looks like a plane cockpit - anyone have a pointer to it?)

Greg.

Last edited by skip (17-08-2010 14:24)

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

Found it:
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/viewtopic...561#p10561

Greg.

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

Did we ever figure out what preset Dawson was using in that demo?

About the Fantom video: What I think I hear in that preset is hard-strike samples and quite a bit of reverb as the source of the decay. That's the old-school method of disguising brief samples, and sometimes it does sound good--the reverb emulates the sound of the sympathetic and cabinet resonance, along with the decay.

So...in PianoTeq, you might try increasing the hardness of the hammer strikes and in the Reverb pane, reducing the size of the room slightly while slightly increasing the length of the reverb tail and increasing the Wetness slightly. Getting the right mixture of these three sliders may take some time and experimentation.

Then use the Spectrum note edit pane to amplify some partials. The higher 5ths (multiples of the 3rd partial in other words), I think, will give you the brighter sound. You might use Audacity to analyze the partial structure in the sampled note, find the PianoTeq preset that comes closest to matching it, and then see how close you could come to replicating the note using the Spectrum profile NE pane.

If you could record a single note from the Fantom and post it, we could all have a go at emulating it. Maybe that Ab? That's a note I'd like to try to emulate.

Now, in the video, it's hard to hear the piano because of the string patch.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (17-08-2010 15:59)

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

Jake Johnson wrote:

Did we ever figure out what preset Dawson was using in that demo?

C3 Light.

Hard work and guts!

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

I suspect that that the AGC in the video camera is helping Pianoteq in that recording.

Greg.

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

What's AGC? Another mic?

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

Auto Gain Correction, I presume.

Hard work and guts!

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

Yes - Auto Gain Correction, which is dynamic range compression, of course. It's just a thought anyway.

Greg.

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

Sorry, the Strings accompaniment help to mask the piano sound in this video.

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

EvilDragon wrote:

C3 Light.

Which doesn't exist - right? So it's a custom patch?

Greg.

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

Hm, dunno. I forgot all that since I use K1

Hard work and guts!

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

C3 Light preset was present in version 3.0, but we didn't keep it as a preset because the main difference was in the velocity curve and variations on the velocity curve make real sense only when made in connection with the keyboard which is used. It's description was: "This preset is intended to give the feeling of a light keyboard action. The main difference with the Player preset is in the velocity curve."

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

EvilDragon wrote:

Hm, dunno. I forgot all that since I use K1

I don't like any other model other than K1 anymore too but I had to tweak it considerably.

The only real thing missing I find is the attack, ringy - bell kind of sound which is more present in K1, with the C3 you can hear the harpy sound of the string but K1 sounds like a real piano, like here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2963766/the_tra...nished.mp3
or
here
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2963766/the_lon...adness.m4a

Here is my tweaked C3 it's still sounds electronic the strucked string, the resonance and sustain are beautiful though, keep it up PTQ

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2963766/a-birds-journey.m4a

Re: The kind of piano sound I want is rich in overtones

I've tried to play around with my Pianoteq Play in Mainstage. I don't know what you think of this sound (I recorded it in Logic).

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...0impro.mp3