Tuning an upright piano with pianoteq?

Thanks Erich for your detailed response. I realise now the folly of this method. Yesterday, out of pure stubbornness, I retried tuning the upright to pianoteq with octave stretching set to 2 and string length set to minimum.

For reasons you have explained, it just doesn't work. Some intervals seem to fit well, while others clash horribly! Oh well, close but no cigar. Next time I will listen out for how the piano wants to sound rather than each note separately.

I'm fascinated to hear about your method for setting the temperament. By all means, digress away on temperament tuning!

Thank you, Erich. That would be most helpful.

Would your method bear any resemblance to the Defebaugh or Potter temperaments as described in Reblitz? I am quite curious.

I had a go at the middle octaves earlier today using the Defebaugh temperament. It all started well, with F37-F49 and its intervals all sounding good. Then I rather hastily tuned the upper octaves going up a step at a time. When I went back to F37-F49 an hour later, it had lost its tune!

Reblitz describes how to set the pins by tuning a little sharp, and then bringing it back, which I thought I was doing correctly, however. Perhaps the piano isn't failing to hold its tune, or I need to review how I set the pins properly.  Needless to say, I will re-attempt the whole thing again tomorrow in order to get the hang of it!

Hi Tony and Jake.  To Jake, these methods we are discussing are all fairly modern methods (named after their inventor) of setting Equal temperament.  I've never tried any historical temperaments.
Tony, about setting the pins, yes I have had the initial notes go out of tune on me when I return to check them a half hour later - frustrating.  It's not so much your lever technique as it is the quality of the piano and the tightness of the tuning pins in the wooden pin block.  Also if the piano was sitting there with its pitch flat of A440 for a long time, it will want to settle back down to where it was before you started.  It might take a couple of tunings for it to "learn" its new tension and then maybe it will stay there for months without having to be tuned. 
You are right on track to go a little sharp and then ease it back down - the strings will stay where you need them a little longer.  Make sure that you tighten slowly and "feel" the pin turn deep in the pin block.  If you twist the tuning hammer too fast, the very top of the pin (that is visible) will twist instead of being turned fully along its length.  There is more detail about all this in your book.
I assume you already can get A440 from a tuning fork or electric tuner using the method in the book (striking F2 which is 2 octaves below middle C and comparing the beat rate of F2 and the A440 source to F2 and your piano's A above middle C). 
I will follow this post with a post on the actual method.  I'm sorry but I have limited time to type.  How are you on getting the A440, then the A below that, then the F below that, then the D above middle C, then the Bb below middle C?  Are you able to get these starting pitches pretty close?  They don't have to be perfect - just sounding decent.  My system relies on your ability to get these first notes, and depending on your reply, I can offer some help in finding these as well.  But if you can already get them consistently, I'll just skip to the other notes.
Tony, as to your question regarding resemblance to other methods, mine resembles the Defebaugh method.  However, instead of being a F-F temperament octave, I developed a D-D octave (a minor third lower).  Using some lower notes in this way utilizes the fact that these intervals beat a little slower and louder and are easier to hear.
Also it resembles the more modern approach of tuning 3rds and 6ths and not relying on 4ths and 5ths (which beat too slow), but rather using them as checks along the way.  Also, using my lower method, you can even use the fast beating minor 3rd as a check, since in this range it is slow enough to hear! 
More coming soon!
-Erich

Hi Tony,
Here is my temperament method as promised:
In my piano note designation, I will call the lowest A on the piano A1 so that A440 is A5 (the 5th A from the bottom).  Sorry if this naming method does not match yours, but I don't really have the 88 key numbers on a chart in front of me to be absolutely sure of what key I'm talking about.
When I get into beat rates, I have come up with a seemingly novel method for timing them.  I looked at how many beats per second they are supposed to beat, multiplied that number by 60 to get beats per minute, then divided by 4.  Why 4? Because that number gives me a metronome marking that is 4 times too slow, and when I multiply 4 beats per tick, I get 16th notes.  So lets take A4 (A below middle C) and figure out F3 a major third below it.  The Reblitz book says these intervals beat about 6.93 times a second.  That number is not very useful, so we take 6.93 and multiply it by 60, giving us 415.8 beats per minute.  That is also not a useful number, so lets make each beat a sixteenth note by dividing by 4.  415.8 divided by 4 is 103.95 on the metronome (which is practically 104 on the metronome).  Dial your metronome to 104 and say "1 ee and ah 2 ee and ah (and so on) and you can accurately and musically time the beat rates!  Make the F-A interval beat like 16th notes at this 104 tempo and you have 6.93 beats a second.  The F-A will sound great!
If you haven't already done so, invest in a cheap electronic metronome - it will help at least get the initial notes (F3,A#4,D4) close enough to use for the rest of the tuning.

Here are my D-D temperament steps:
1) So, as you know, A5 is tuned to A440 using F2 (second F from the bottom) as a reference beat.
2) Tune A4 to A5 (Octave down) to a beatless octave. 
Test F2-A4 against F2-A5 - they should beat about the same
3) Tune F3 to A4 (Major 3rd down) 4 beats per tick at M.M. (Metronome Marking)104
4) Tune D4 to F3 (Major 6th up) 4 beats per tick at M.M. 119
Test A4-D4 (Perfect 4th) should "roll" slowly because it is a little wide.
Test D4-A5 (Perfect 5th) should roll even slower because it is just a little narrow.
5) Tune A#4 to D4 (Major 3rd down) 4 beats per tick at M.M. 139
(This is the fastest interval to hear in my temperament.  It took me some practice to get this interval close at this fast tempo - just get it pretty close so you can do this test):
Test F3-A#4(perfect 4th) should roll slowly because it is a little wide.
6) Tune F#3 to A#4 (major 3rd down) to beat a little faster than F3-A4 is.  At this point you can do everything relatively, but I will give you the metronome tempos in case you need help in developing your ear for how fast it should be). So, 4 beats per tick at M.M. 110 (remember F-A was 4 beats per tick at M.M. 104) - now you get the idea of how much faster we're talking about.
Test F#3-A4 (minor 3rd) this should beat really fast - faster than anything we have heard so far)
7) Tune D3 to D4 (Perfect octave down) beatless.  Even though we haven't tuned A#3 yet, Make sure to Test A#3-D3(Major 3rd) against A#3-D4 (Major 10th).  They should beat the same.
You will now have created a Major 3rd between the D3 you just tuned and the F#3 you tuned in step 6.  This will be the slowest beating Major 3rd we will use. Now test D3-A4 (perfect 5th) and it should roll very slowly because it is just a little narrow.  Lastly, D3-F3(minor third) will beat the same as F3-D4(Major 6th) - pretty cool!
8) Tune B4 to D3 (Major 6th up) to be slower than the Major 6th of F3-D4.
If you need a reference tempo, it is 4 beats per tick at M.M. 100.
Test F#3-B4 (perfect 4th) should roll slowly because it is a little wide.

To Be Continued...
I'm sorry but I need to put the rest in my next post.  I've run out of time.  Please try these steps out and see if you can get them sounding acceptable (using the metronome past step 6 if you need help).  This method uses tuning 3rds, 6ths, and octaves only - no 4ths and 5ths.  The 4ths and 5ths are just checked along the way.  In all methods I've previously seen, there is a 4th or 5th to tune, and it has to be like 1 beat per 4 seconds or something - too slow to use accurately and too hard to judge in my opinion.  That's why I chose the faster, easier-to-hear intervals for my method.
Good luck - part 2 coming soon!
-Erich

Here's Part 2:
9) Tune G3 to B4 (Major 3rd down) 4 beats per tick at M.M. 117.
This G-B should beat a little faster than the F#3-A#4 you did earlier.
Test D3-G3 (perfect 4th) should "roll" slowly because it is a little wide.
Test G3-D4 (perfect 5th) should roll even slower because it is just a little narrow.
10) Tune D#3 to G3 (Major 3rd down) 4 beats per tick at M.M. 93.
This D#-G should beat a little faster than the D3-F#3 Major 3rd you did earlier.
Test D#3-A#4 (perfect 5th) should roll very slowly because it is just a little narrow.
11) Tune C4 to D#3 (Major 6th up) 4 beats per tick at M.M. 106.
This D#-C Major 6th should beat a little faster than D3-B4 Major 6th you did earlier.
Test G3-C4 (perfect 4th) should roll slowly because it is a little wide.
Test F3-C4 (perfect 5th) should roll very slowly because it is just a little narrow.
12) Tune G#3 to C4 (Major 3rd down) 4 beats per tick at M.M. 124.
This G#-C Major 3rd should beat a little faster than the G3-B4 Major 3rd you did earlier.
Test D#3-G#3 (perfect 4th) should roll slowly because it is a little wide.
13) Tune E3 to G#3 (Major 3rd down) 4 beats per tick at M.M. 98.
This E-G# Major 3rd should beat a little faster than the D#3-G3 Major 3rd you did earlier.  The E3-G#3 also needs to be a little slower than the F3-A4 Major 3rd you did at the beginning.  So this E-G# will fit right in between the Major 3rd below it and the Major 3rd above it.
Test E3-A4 (perfect 4th) should roll slowly because it is a little wide.
Test E3-B4 (perfect 5th) should roll very slowly because it is just a little narrow.
14) Tune C#4 to E3 (Major 6th up) 4 beats per tick at M.M. 112.
This E-C# Major 6th should beat a little faster than the D#3-C4 Major 6th you did earlier.  It also will beat slower than the F3-D4 you did at the beginning.  So, this E-C# needs to fit right in between the Major 6th below it and the Major 6th above it.
Also notice that by tuning the C#4, you have created a Major 3rd between A4 and C#4.  This A-C# Major 3rd should beat faster than the G#3-C4 Major 3rd below it.  And the A-C# should beat slightly slower than the A#4-D4 Major 3rd above it.  So again this A-C# needs to fit right in between the Major 3rd below it and the Major 3rd above it. For reference, the A4-C#4 Major 3rd beat rate will be 4 beats per tick at M.M. 131.
Test G#3-C#4 (perfect 4th) should roll slowly because it is a little wide
Test F#3-C#4 (perfect 5th) should roll even slower because it is just a little narrow.

A note on this method:  The metronome is just an aid for hearing how fast the initial beats should be.  Its use should be discontinued after step 5.  By then you should use relative speeds for the remainder.  If you use the metronome for all steps, we run into the problem of theoretical beat rates versus reality on different pianos that we discussed at the beginning of this thread.  The main thing is to check that the 4ths and 5ths don't sound horrible along the way.  The better you get, the smoother the progression of beating 3rds and 6ths will be as you play chromatically up (faster and faster) and chromatically down (slower and slower).

Tony, don't get discouraged if you can't fit the final intervals right in between the ones you did earlier - that takes practice.  What really helped me in the beginning is practicing timing the initial F-A Major 3rd to 16th notes at 104 on the metronome.  Even this takes practice hearing as you have discovered.  Some of the more expensive grand pianos reveal this readily, while less expensive uprights hide the beats very softly.  It might help to play softly and put your ear near the hammers and strings of those notes.  For this initial exercise, you might even listen to Pianoteq's F3 and get your piano's F3 beatless to that.  Although we talked earlier on how this will not work for the temperament of all pianos, it will help you hear what a close F should sound like against the A.  Then from there you just bring the interval in line with my metronome method, counting "1 e and ah 2 e and ah" pretty fast to keep up with 104 on the metronome.
On the net, I have found wave files of a professional guy tuning these intervals on his own upright piano and I will post a link next.  That way you can hear the initial intervals beating on a well tuned piano.
By the way, after step 14, tune the remaining notes up until you hit A5 (or A440).  You can use octaves to tune and test that the 3rds and 6ths all get faster and faster as you go up.  Then by that time you will have Low D3 to A 440 done on your piano.  This is an excellent reference then for tuning the bass and treble notes.  Use octaves to tune and always check Major 3rds.  When those become too hard to hear, use Major 10ths, and when those get too hard to hear, use Major 17ths.  At the very last octave in the bass and the very last octave in the treble I mainly use double octaves to make sure the bass is low enough and the high treble is sharp enough.  But that is a topic for another time.
Good luck in your tuning endeavors!
-Erich

I've tried tuning my rickety upright to a tone from a synth quite a few times - it's hard! lol

Yeah I think the best advice remains to get the centre octave tuned nicely so the intervals within it sound nice and don't beat hideously,
and then you tune octaves up and down from that.

I still find synth tones a useful guide, but you really gotta listen to the beats and just use your ears and think "does this sound nice?"

I always tend to tune my clavinet by using a pitch reference (synth) for each string,
but then I put it through and overdrive pedal and nudge all the 4ths/5ths a bit, to get them to chime nicely when overdriven,
otherwise power chords sound like hell.

3rds and 6ths then do quite mental things

Thanks again, Erich. These are excellent audio examples. Now to put all this great advice into practice!