Hi,
I have been trying the demo version of pianoteq with linux, and the quality of the sound is good, like a piano.
The problem is when I connect my keyboard to the computer through a midi cable. When touching the keyboard of the pianoteq the sound is different than when I touch the keys of my connected keyboard, I mean really bad.
What I'm doing wrong?
Audio device: Alsa
Keyboard: Yamaha psr-e313
When touching the keyboard of the pianoteq the sound is different than when I touch the keys of my connected keyboard, I mean really bad.
What I'm doing wrong?
Audio device: Alsa
Keyboard: Yamaha psr-e313
John, please define "bad."
And which is worse -- the sound from pressing Pianoteq's on-screen keyboard, or the sound from pressing the Yamaha keyboard? (I'm assuming the Yamaha.)
Idiot question, so I apologize in advance, but I have to ask it: did you turn down the volume all the way on the Yamaha? If you didn't, then the sucker should still be making noise, which would be a problem.
I looked up the keyboard, and it has "Touch Response" -- I'm also going to assume (cough, choke, GASP!) that this is their way of saying "velocity response." The on-screen keyboard produces notes at only a single, loud velocity (no "mouse-click velocity response," I'm agraid ), so you may just have to adjsut your velocity curve (the lower left corner, sharing space with the EQ curve).
As you guess the sound of the yamaha is the worse one. Yes I have turned down the volume of the yamaha and I have copied the "Velocity curves" for my model.
The "Touch response" means when striking a key harder will produce a louder sound, striking it softer will produce a softer sound.
But I still hear the "metalic"/"artificial" sound when playing through the computer. When I play disconected from the computer and with the headphones on, the sound is better.
The model of the keyboard doesn't matter when connected to the computer, because the keyboard is only a keyboard,no?
Thanks!
The on-screen keyboard is 'position'-sensitive rather than velocity-sensitive; I mean, if you click the key on the lower part (down) you get hi velocity values, if you click in the upper part (toward user interface) you get low velocity values.
John, you are right: the keyboard is only a keyboard and the differences regard only accuracy, confort of playing and velocity response. But this is not very clear to me:
But I still hear the "metalic"/"artificial" sound when playing through the computer. When I play disconected from the computer and with the headphones on, the sound is better.
Do you mean you connect headphones to the computer and disconnect speakers?
Do you mean you connect headphones to the computer and disconnect speakers?
No, no. I mean when playing with my keyboard I usually play with the headphones on, and the quality of the sound is much better than with the keyboard speakers. This is the reason I searched for a software like pianoteq, so I can get a good sound quality when playing without headphones.
Ok, so it seems that the amplificatin system built in your keyboard is not the best choice for you, choosing headphones as a better reproduction device instead. But this should be true only for internal PSR sounds. Thus my question is: which is pianoteq's reproduction system? I don't think that PSR has an aux input line, so to listen to pianoteq you should connect your headphones or another kind of amp system to your computer audio output.
Yes, I ask myself the same question. What amplification are you using when playing Pianoteq?
Yes, I ask myself the same question. What amplification are you using when playing Pianoteq?
I use the computer speakers as amplifier. But when I try the examples shown here http://www.pianoteq.com/listen?type=acoustic the sound quality is good. When I play the keyboard through pianoteq, the sound quality should be the same,no?
EvilDragon wrote:Yes, I ask myself the same question. What amplification are you using when playing Pianoteq?
I use the computer speakers as amplifier. But when I try the examples shown here http://www.pianoteq.com/listen?type=acoustic the sound quality is good. When I play the keyboard through pianoteq, the sound quality should be the same,no?
Yes, it should be the same.
Which computer speakers? Please, try to be as detailed as you can. What's the soundcard?
I have created a midi file with 1 song (a very short fragment), so you can hear it.
I have created a midi file with 1 song (a very short fragment), so you can hear it.
Remember that a MIDI file does NOT contain any sound, it just triggers the sound from whatever soundsource I am using to replay the MIDI file.
It will NOT tell us anything about what exactly you are hearing on your system.
You need to somehow make an audio recording and upload an mp3 for us if we need to hear what you are hearing.
Yes, MIDI file is of no use. Do an audio recording.
Yes, MIDI file is of no use. Do an audio recording.
It's true. Here is the mp3 file:
http://www.easy-share.com/1911129541/midi1.mp3
Thanks!
This sounds like Pianoteq 2 to me, most definitely. Pianoteq 3 sounds way better than this example.
This sounds like Pianoteq 2 to me, most definitely. Pianoteq 3 sounds way better than this example.
As you can hear, the sound isn't like a Grand K1.
I have the demo version: 3.6.1/20100525
Is it possible that the demo version is different?
No, that is not possible. I'd say that your sound system messes stuff up. Over here in Windows XP with ASIO drivers everything's flawless.
John, I think your setup is right: I downloadet both mp3 amd midi files and played the latter with "K1 Player" preset. On my mac I can't hear any difference playing your mp3 and mine.
Personally I think that pianoteq for music with great use of resonance or far micing is really good, maybe the best; when you play a simpler piece like the one you posted and you need a lot of presence (eg player position) maybe samples are still the best way to go.
Just my 2 cents
Maybe try it with a different custom user preset downloading it from the file section.
I use this in studio as a starting point, for istance
http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...studio.fxp
but there are other good user's presets to try
I think that he needs to adjust the velocity curves in Pianoteq.
Yes, this is another good point!
Also, perhaps increasing hammer hardness for mezzoforte and forte would bring more presence to the sound.
Microphone positioning is also EXTREMELY important. Try to play with microphones to bring even more presence into the mix.
Also your recording is too dry. Put some reverb on it.
BTW Yamaha PSRs aren't really known for the quality of their keybeds. I think that's the culprit as well.
johnlewis, this is how your MIDI sounds after tweaking these parameters of K1 Solo Recording preset:
Hammer hardness piano: 0.25
Hammer hardness mezzo: 1.10
Hammer hardness forte: 1.70
Hammer noise: 1.45
Strike point: 1/9.2
Duplex scale: 1.50
Dynamics: 40 dB
Reverb: preset Chamber - player
Wet: -3 dB
Time: 1.3 s
Size: 15 m
http://www.mediafire.com/?2mzyomwbyko
Definitely better!
But now is up to John to understand which is the sound that better suites his needs
Hi,
I have been trying the demo version of pianoteq with linux, and the quality of the sound is good, like a piano.
The problem is when I connect my keyboard to the computer through a midi cable. When touching the keyboard of the pianoteq the sound is different than when I touch the keys of my connected keyboard, I mean really bad.What I'm doing wrong?
Audio device: Alsa
Keyboard: Yamaha psr-e313
Hello John,
If the problem hasn't gone away as of this writing, there might be a different origin, possibly midi feedback. As I understand your symptoms, the quality of sound (when mousing the Pianoteq keyboard) is of much better than when you connect a midi cable and play through the external keyboard. Is that correct?
Is it possible that your Yamaha keyboard has a "local on/off" switch? If so, you might try shutting off the local switch. Sonic symptoms of midi feedback include wildly metallic sounds, possibly some unintended "phasing" of the sound, and simply horrific sound quality.
Again, I don't know if this helps, but I haven't heard anyone else mention this to date, so maybe it might help you sort out your problem.
Cheers,
Joe
Hi,
I have tried all the suggestions, but I still don't hear it like a
piano sound, like the tests at this page (http://www.pianoteq.com/listen_classical).
- The samples I have upload are with the velocity parameters suggested
in pianoteq home page.
- I have modified the parameters suggested in the forum, but the sound is
not like a piano.
- I have modified the local parameter in my keyboard to "off" but I
didn't noticed any difference.
- I have watched the tutorial video and the sound I get is not the
same as with my keyboard.
What I understand, and correct me please if I'm wrong, when I connect
the keyboard with a MIDI cable to my computer, and I play on my
keyboard, pianoteq interprets each note and outputs a piano sound. So
it doesn't matter what keyboard I have because it's the application
who plays. The MIDI cable I use, or the computer aren't the problem
because I don't have latency problems. And the soundcard isn't the
problem because I hear the tests at this page (http://www.pianoteq.com/listen_classical) and the sound is clearly like a piano.
Thanks to all!!!
Then the problem is most definitely in determining what's the good velocity curve to use on your E313. Pianoteq also has its own velocity curve which needs to be CAREFULLY adjusted to match velocities to your style of playing.
As I mentioned, PSRs are not the best keyboards for MIDI control of Pianoteq. You should get a proper weighted action board. E313 does NOT have weighted action and there's your problem.
This is what makes the most sense to me, because I hear Pianoteq EXACTLY like in those demos, but that's because I have tweaked my velocity curves to adjust it to my style of playing.
The demos don't lie - Pianoteq really sounds like that. But you cannot expect it to sound like that out of the box for every controller keyboard on the market. You will have to get your hands dirty and adjust some parameters to make the sound more to your taste.
But you gotta have a proper controller first. E313 is NOT a proper controller for Pianoteq!
- The samples I have upload are with the velocity parameters suggested in pianoteq home page.
What are those parameters?
johnlewis wrote:- The samples I have upload are with the velocity parameters suggested in pianoteq home page.
What are those parameters?
http://www.pianoteq.com/velocity_curves
PSR-E303/E313
Velocity = [8, 9, 19, 32, 47, 61, 77, 93, 115; 0, 6, 8, 18, 31, 46, 66, 91, 127]
My model is the E313. Is it possible that my problem is about my midi cable. I have read in this forum that a lot of people use a box to join the keyboard with the PC. Is this better than a cable?
Is this better than a cable?
No, cable shouldn't have nothing to do with it. And the "box" solution isn't any different from direct cable.
Try editing that velocity curve to fit your style of playing. And keep in mind that you can't achieve miracles on synth-weighted keyboard like E313. They were not made to convey the same feel like when you play a piano, and this is what confuses you, and what Pianoteq cannot interpret correctly. It was made to be played with weighted keyboard controllers, not cheap keyboards like Yamaha PSR.
My suggestion is - start saving for a good quality weighted keyboard controller.
BTW are you saying you don't like how the sound turned out here: http://www.mediafire.com/?2mzyomwbyko?
Because that sounds MUCH better than your example.
I'd guess - like others here - that it's mostly velocity-response related problem. In fact Pianoteq is a great vehicle to test some keyboard. If PTQ feels good to play, keyboard is good also (also you can see visually how it responds to your touch). With this "test" I've rejected many appraised keyboards like AKAI mpk or Nord Lead 2X. (I liked playing PTQ with the new Cakewalk A-500PRO and then I decided to keep it... Still it's 1000 miles far from piano action like my RD700GX)
In general I've realized that perceived piano sound is much more complex phenomenon than just vibrating air coming to players ears. If it doesn't feel right then it doesn't "sound" right also. Latency is obvious example of this: latency doesn't affect to sound itself, it just delays it. Still if you have latency (and those milliseconds matter!!!) it "sounds" bad when playing.
But if it's not sound system, latency or keyboard velocity case here, maybe it's this: johnlewis is listening to spacious or distant piano sound which he likes as a recorded sound but not as a sound for a player. We've been discussing about difference of "players piano" vs. "listeners piano". In my opinion PTQ has been better of producing the latter. Now with K1 we did get better (more present and clear) "players piano" but maybe johnlewis is still used to something different.
I maybe wrong with this last suggestion..
I maybe wrong with this last suggestion..
Maybe, but you explained in a better way what I expressed in my post #17 and honestly I'm afraid this is the problem..
John, try this last thing: I've uploaded a midi file (I didn't play it) and a K1 preset slightly modified. Load both in your pianoteq and listen if it seems convincing to you. If it passes the test try to play something and judge if it still convincing or something changes in your feeling.
Let us know
[And keep in mind that you can't achieve miracles on synth-weighted keyboard like E313. They were not made to convey the same feel like when you play a piano, and this is what confuses you, and what Pianoteq cannot interpret correctly. It was made to be played with weighted keyboard controllers, not cheap keyboards like Yamaha PSR.
My suggestion is - start saving for a good quality weighted keyboard controller.
But, I thought the quality of keyboard when playing through the computer doesn't matter, the computer only receives notes and pianoteq interpret these notes.
John, try this last thing: I've uploaded a midi file (I didn't play it) and a K1 preset slightly modified. Load both in your pianoteq and listen if it seems convincing to you. If it passes the test try to play something and judge if it still convincing or something changes in your feeling.
Let us know
I have tried it and it sounds good. But I can't play it again with my keyboard to compare the sound.
EvilDragon wrote:[And keep in mind that you can't achieve miracles on synth-weighted keyboard like E313. They were not made to convey the same feel like when you play a piano, and this is what confuses you, and what Pianoteq cannot interpret correctly. It was made to be played with weighted keyboard controllers, not cheap keyboards like Yamaha PSR.
My suggestion is - start saving for a good quality weighted keyboard controller.
But, I thought the quality of keyboard when playing through the computer doesn't matter, the computer only receives notes and pianoteq interpret these notes.
Of course, it matters to the PLAYER! It's like playing the guitar with rusty old strings instead of playing the guitar with silky smooth new strings! Keyboard feel is very important, and the way it conveys player's dynamics is much better done on weighted keyboards.
But you gotta have a proper controller first. E313 is NOT a proper controller for Pianoteq!
Sorry but at the pianoteq website there is not this restriction.
EvilDragon wrote:But you gotta have a proper controller first. E313 is NOT a proper controller for Pianoteq!
Sorry but at the pianoteq website there is not this restriction.
No, there isn't but there is also NO guarantee that you'll get the best response from Pianoteq using such keyboard!
There's even recommendation that for serious use of Pianoteq you should have a proper piano-weighted controller keyboard, with careful adjustment of velocity curves on both the controller and Pianoteq, to get the best results.
You can use any MIDI keyboard such as a digital piano or a synthesizer. To be able to play with detailed expression you need a keyboard with a good velocity sensitivity. Most stage keyboards and digital pianos have that, more or less. There is everything from light stage pianos with optional stand to heavy grand models with real grand piano action built in. Useful advice on what keyboard to use can be found in the PIANOTEQ user forum and in the Piano World digital piano forum.
Is E313 a stage keyboard/piano or digital piano? No, it isn't, it's a beginner's home keyboard not meant to do any serious stage work. Does it have good velocity sensitivity and weighted keys? No, it doesn't. So you can't expect the best results from it. That's the bottom line.
Is E313 a stage keyboard/piano or digital piano? No, it isn't, it's a beginner's home keyboard not meant to do any serious stage work. Does it have good velocity sensitivity and weighted keys? No, it doesn't. So you can't expect the best results from it. That's the bottom line.
Then... I'm sorry. Pianoteq is not the software I'm looking for.
Thanks.
EvilDragon wrote:Is E313 a stage keyboard/piano or digital piano? No, it isn't, it's a beginner's home keyboard not meant to do any serious stage work. Does it have good velocity sensitivity and weighted keys? No, it doesn't. So you can't expect the best results from it. That's the bottom line.
Then... I'm sorry. Pianoteq is not the software I'm looking for.
Thanks.
I think you didn't understand... No matter what software you choose you're keyboard is going to make it sound awful. Why? Because your keyboard has a very limited (and uncontrolled) number of dynamic layers it transmits to the computer, so from a 12 or 14 layered sampled piano or modeled piano you end up with a strange sounding 3 layered piano sound. The quality of your master keyboard is essential. Try a good stage piano with hammer-mechanics (Roland FP-5/7; Yamaha CP33; Roland RD700 GX; Numa; etc...) and then you'll see the quality of pianoteq.
IMO the biggest problem is quite often this:
with some keyboards you get highest velocities (127 or near) too "easily". Take Nord Lead 2x for example. I was thinking of buying it as my all-around synth and small portable controller, but it had this. I did get 127 by just dropping my hand down without any pressure. I think there's no way to fix this by tweaking the curve?
Nord keyboard could still fool me for quite a long time. With its own sounds and with VB3 organ it was fine. I'm glad that PTQ revealed this finaly.
Nord was just an example; I've discovered the same problematic with some other "professional" keyboards too...
Hi,
I have tried all the suggestions, but I still don't hear it like a
piano sound, like the tests at this page (http://www.pianoteq.com/listen_classical).
- The samples I have upload are with the velocity parameters suggested
in pianoteq home page.
- I have modified the parameters suggested in the forum, but the sound is
not like a piano.
- I have modified the local parameter in my keyboard to "off" but I
didn't noticed any difference.
- I have watched the tutorial video and the sound I get is not the
same as with my keyboard.What I understand, and correct me please if I'm wrong, when I connect
the keyboard with a MIDI cable to my computer, and I play on my
keyboard, pianoteq interprets each note and outputs a piano sound. So
it doesn't matter what keyboard I have because it's the application
who plays. The MIDI cable I use, or the computer aren't the problem
because I don't have latency problems. And the soundcard isn't the
problem because I hear the tests at this page (http://www.pianoteq.com/listen_classical) and the sound is clearly like a piano.Thanks to all!!!
Hi Johnlewis!
As you say it doesn't sound like a piano, I think it must be more then a velocity problem. Also I don't think that the type of keyboard should make PTQ sound like beeing NOT a piano at all.
Could it be, that you trigger a internal soundcard sound with your midi keyboard? I mean a sound produced by your internal computer soundcard!
1)Which Midi Input do you use? (MIDI interface)
2)Is there an onboard soundcard which isn't switched off?
3)What is your audio hardware?(in the computer)
4)Which audio driver is used in your computer system? (ASIO?)
As you say that when clicking on the PTQ keyboard surface with your mouse, you can hear a proper piano sound, I guess you don't trigger PTQ or don't trigger it alone via your MIDI setting. Or your term "not a piano sound" is irritating me.
If you CAN hear a piano sound but you don't like it that much as the demo files on PTQ page, this would be a different story. Then the other users could be right with the velocity aspect. But the way you describe the sound has to be more than this.
If you give more informations about the whole signal chain from Midi cable to computer and back it could help us to identify your problem.
best wishes
heinke
EvilDragon wrote:Is E313 a stage keyboard/piano or digital piano? No, it isn't, it's a beginner's home keyboard not meant to do any serious stage work. Does it have good velocity sensitivity and weighted keys? No, it doesn't. So you can't expect the best results from it. That's the bottom line.
Then... I'm sorry. Pianoteq is not the software I'm looking for.
Thanks.
I've played PTQ with a 200€ YAMAHA keyboard and it sounded very good. (It had a velo-range from 37-98)
It limited my playing in other ways but the software sounded GOOD. I never would have written : "Not a piano at all."
So I don't think it's the keyboard which causes your problem.
If you get good results with a midifile downloaded from the internet and played back in PTQ, you should come close to it with almost any MIDI-keyboard which is something like touch sensitive.
P.S. Left to say that was in the early days of version 2.3 where it in fact hadn't the sound quality of todays version 3.6
1)Which Midi Input do you use? (MIDI interface)
2)Is there an onboard soundcard which isn't switched off?
3)What is your audio hardware?(in the computer)
4)Which audio driver is used in your computer system? (ASIO?)
Thanks for your support Heinke! I will try to answer your questions:
1) I use this MIDI interface http://www.esi-audio.com/products/romio2/. I don't know if it's good or bad.
2)Soundcard switched off??? I thought it must be on.
3) I use this notebook HP Pavilion dv4396ea, the internal soundcard is a 3D Sound Blaster Pro compatible sound 16 bit integrated.
4) I use linux, and the audio driver is ASIO.
Danke
Thanks for your support Heinke! I will try to answer your questions:
1) I use this MIDI interface http://www.esi-audio.com/products/romio2/. I don't know if it's good or bad.
2)Soundcard switched off??? I thought it must be on.
3) I use this notebook HP Pavilion dv4396ea, the internal soundcard is a 3D Sound Blaster Pro compatible sound 16 bit integrated.
4) I use linux, and the audio driver is ASIO.Danke
to:
1) I think it should be no problem with this midi interface.
2) If you use this internal audio card for your PTQ playback of course you can't switch it of, but maybe the incoming midi signal is triggering an internal sound on that sound card. (some of them have some built in sounds-GM copatibel- to play back midi files!) I don't know linux so you have to check that as far as you can.
4) How that ASIO works with an internal soundcard (maybe on linux?) I can't say, but if PTQ sounds good for you while playing back the demo song by Hugh Sung, it works. Is this the case? Does it sound OK for you with the demo file played back? (The one in the software, not on PTQ homepage!)
There is left to say that I use often different presets while playing then while listening to PTQ. The standard presets which sound far distant are from a listeners perspective and do sound authentic while listening. I don't like that while playing because that makes me feel "split up" in some way. Playing while hearing it from a distance. But this are little problems that can be solved as long you are "overall" happy with the PTQ sound at all. It doesn't seem to be that way in your case. You should solve your problem, and maybe you need a different audio card?
Hope it helps in some way.
Heinke
2) If you use this internal audio card for your PTQ playback of course you can't switch it of, but maybe the incoming midi signal is triggering an internal sound on that sound card. (some of them have some built in sounds-GM copatibel- to play back midi files!) I don't know linux so you have to check that as far as you can.
4) How that ASIO works with an internal soundcard (maybe on linux?) I can't say, but if PTQ sounds good for you while playing back the demo song by Hugh Sung, it works. Is this the case? Does it sound OK for you with the demo file played back? (The one in the software, not on PTQ homepage!)
You should solve your problem, and maybe you need a different audio card?
Heinke
2) I will check this.
4) PTQ sounds good when playing the demos
I noticed that when playing the demos of my keyboard with PTQ the sound is good too, but when I play something the sound is not so good. Perhaps the info that is send with MIDI is different when I play the keyboard than when I play the demos?
Perhaps the info that is send with MIDI is different when I play the keyboard than when I play the demos?
Yes, and velocity curve governs most of that behavior, along with the sensitivity of the keybed. Since non-weighted keyboards don't give you any resistance while playing, you cannot control velocity as precisely and neatly as on a real piano-weighted keyboard.
I really think this all boils down to non-weighted keys and weird velocity curves Yamaha built into that E313. It's perhaps good for organ and strings, but not for piano. My 2 cents...
I noticed that when playing the demos of my keyboard with PTQ the sound is good too, but when I play something the sound is not so good. Perhaps the info that is send with MIDI is different when I play the keyboard than when I play the demos?
You can see blue lines in the velocity-window while you play and there you see the actual velos of your playing. You have to adjust the lowest and highest velos that you play to the velocity curve from PTQ as long till you feel comfortable with it.
As I've said before I used a Portable Grand DGX 205 with no weighted keys at all, and had great fun with PTQ. But I DO absolutely prefer the weighted keys from the P85 now.
If you find a velo-setting for your keyboard I think you will get it done!
heinke
You can see blue lines in the velocity-window while you play and there you see the actual velos of your playing. You have to adjust the lowest and highest velos that you play to the velocity curve from PTQ as long till you feel comfortable with it.
...
If you find a velo-setting for your keyboard I think you will get it done!
Y will try it.
As I've said before I used a Portable Grand DGX 205 with no weighted keys at all, and had great fun with PTQ. But I DO absolutely prefer the weighted keys from the P85 now.
heinke
Do you think a NP30 would do the same job?
My first post... some thoughts for johnlewis:
The NP-30 is semi-weighted. I didn't test it, but I think it should work fine with Pianoteq. But if you're serious about learning to play piano, go for an hammer action keyboard.
Old Roland A-33 (A-30, A-37...) MIDI controller keyboards should be as fine as the NP-30, and are easy to find used. They have a light action, but in order to get high velocity values you have to hit really hard on the keys. They just don't make any sound on their own.
One thing I would like to point out is: you should get exactly the same sound from Pianoteq regardless if you're playing with the mouse on the screen or on an external keyboard, as long as the MIDI velocity values you feed to Pianoteq are the same. Look at the blue lines. If this rule does not hold, there's something broken in your setup (and I'm sure Linux is not the culprit, look elsewhere).
By the way... ASIO? Maybe you meant ALSA.
gp
One thing I would like to point out is: you should get exactly the same sound from Pianoteq regardless if you're playing with the mouse on the screen or on an external keyboard, as long as the MIDI velocity values you feed to Pianoteq are the same. Look at the blue lines. If this rule does not hold, there's something broken in your setup (and I'm sure Linux is not the culprit, look elsewhere).
By the way... ASIO? Maybe you meant ALSA.gp
Other people from this forum said that with my keyboard (yamaha psr-e313) pianoteq is going to make it sound awful. I'm happy that you and azrael4 didn't think so.