Topic: How To Increase Realism in the Middle Registers

Hi

I've just bought Pianoteq Play and am getting to know it.

I love the sound in the higher registers, and the lower ones, but the middle octaves seem the least satisfying in terms of capturing the subtleties of a real piano experience.

Lower velocities seem to produce better results in this section too, but at normal playing velocities in these middle octaves, where I am playing most often, I'm finding myself a little disappointed. For example, up in the highest octaves, there is a wonderfully realistic soundboard resonance with some notes playing with the sustain pedal down, but notes in the middle registers do not seem to trigger such rich resonances. And the harmonics seem too quiet in this range too.

I won't have money to buy the full Pianoteq for a while, so I'm working with the limitations of Play for now. Unfortunately I have a demanding ear without a budget to match!

I'm mostly working with the VST version (inside Live) and have added an EQ to dampen the 1K-3K range which sounded too bright, and add some more treble.

What are other people doing to enhance the realism of their Pianoteq sound? I know it's a very subjective and personal thing.

I've been a bit spoiled by the Roland product we do not name on this forum but for 99 Euros I can't complain, but I would like to get the best I can from my purchase.

Thanks
Richard

Re: How To Increase Realism in the Middle Registers

craftycurate wrote:

What are other people doing to enhance the realism of their Pianoteq sound?

Well, PLAY version doesn't give you the flexibility you have in Standard or Pro to adjust the harmonics and resonance and all other parameters, at all. So you're kinda stuck with what you got. You can try tweaking EQ, but it will be applied to ALL the notes, not just the middle range.

craftycurate wrote:

I've been a bit spoiled by the Roland product we do not name on this forum

Sure we do mention it, look at my signature!

I was vastly underwhelmed by the feel of the keybed of V-Piano. And the sound was nice, but not really Pianoteq nice. And not really Pianoteq price

Hard work and guts!

Re: How To Increase Realism in the Middle Registers

Are you playing on speakers or headphones?  I found the exact same thing to be true when I put on my headphones, so I EQ'd the upper frequencies higher..  There's such a wide variance in audio hardware out there, I can't imagine them making Pianoteq sound the best out of the box on every setup.

Be sure to try out all the presets.  When you are able to upgrade to the next version (next in their product line-up, standard or pro, not the next version they release), I think you'll find much more freedom to make it sound more like what you want, but my presets always seem to end up very close to the built-in presets.

Last edited by JerryKnight (02-06-2010 15:17)

Re: How To Increase Realism in the Middle Registers

Thanks for replies.

I am using headphones at the mo - good quality Sennheiser, but quite old, and I should test on proper system (if only I had one).

Interesting - I loved the VPiano action and sound - I guess it's an individual thing, but that was playing through £400 monitors!

Cheers
Richard

Re: How To Increase Realism in the Middle Registers

I've found that a very small amount of detuning helps a lot. In the standard Pianoteq, control click the volume slider. Then choose "Note Edit" and, once you're in the volume editing window, click on the "Volume" popup on the upper left and choose "Detune." (Still with me?)

Clicking Random and smooth alternately will put your piano very slightly out-of-tune and render the midrange less perfect and plastic sounding.

Re: How To Increase Realism in the Middle Registers

"I love the sound in the higher registers, and the lower ones, but the middle octaves seem the least satisfying in terms of capturing the subtleties of a real piano experience."

I'm glad I'm not the only one out there who feels this way.  When I first heard a Pianoteq demo audio file containing some high chords with the sustain pedal down, I was blown away with the resonance.  To my dissapointment though after playing around with the trial version myself, I could not quite capture that richness in the middle of the piano - to be more specific, an octave below middle C to about a fifth above middle C.  This section, unfortunately the most played area, has a sterile quality, no matter what model piano I choose. 

I am a professional jazz/pop pianist and amateur piano tuner and I've been blessed to sit down and play on all types of pianos.  On even the most humble spinet upright piano, if you give it a good tuning and hold the sustain pedal down and play a loud C major chord right in the middle of the piano, you get a wonderful rich harmonic experience.  I haven't found that experience testing digital pianos and sampled piano software (although Ivory II claims it has found the holy grail of resonance - we shall see) and Pianoteq gets part of this right and the creators are to be commended for their great strides.  However, due to lack of raw computing power and modeling compromises, I'm not ready to abandon the real piano experience, either playing nor listening to a recording. 

Having said that, are there Pianoteq Pro users out there who were able to circumnavigate this synthetic quality by adjusting the attack, resonance, and harmonic spectrum on a note-by-note basis?  All I ever get when I mess around with the harmonics is an instrument that sounds like an organ mixed with a vibraphone!  :-)
I feel that I step way out of my league when I start fiddling with the harmonic spectrum controls.
 
I am sure that Philippe, being a piano tuner who has played countless acoustic pianos, knows how his creation stacks up against the real thing.  I just hope that he and his team are able to develop a product that is more convincing than a "TeraByte" sampled piano (which, in the end is just a collection of pretty acoustic snapshots of a piano forever frozen in time).

Last edited by erichlof (03-06-2010 06:42)

Re: How To Increase Realism in the Middle Registers

I have a PTQ pro, but to be honest I haven't managed to get this part sound right. For me the most problematic area is those two octaves below middle C and it comes out with higher velocities. All I could do (with Pro) was to decrease mezzo and forte hammer hardness in this area. This solution is a compromise and still the synthetic quality is there. And it's there with all the PTQ pianos and I can hear it all audios that use PTQ. On the other hand, to my ears going up from middle C sounds beautiful. I really hope that in the future Modartt can expand this nice-sounding area to whole 88-keys. 

Here at this forum, I can see that some people like to criticize V-piano but they are completely silent about these problems I have been pointing out for a quite long time. I have played piano sounds to non pianist or non musician ears (to my wife and brother for example) and even they can hear that this lower part is not so good as higher. On the other hand they appraised V-piano when I had it for a weekend and I made a little blind test for many piano sounds (RD700GX, Pianoteq, Yamaha S90SX, Synthogy Ivory).

Last edited by Ecaroh (03-06-2010 07:22)

Re: How To Increase Realism in the Middle Registers

The following is a midi recording produced by a jazz pianist from New Zealand - Doug MacKenzie.  So keep in mind that it IS NOT ME playing.

http://www.box.net/shared/6epy8o76cg

Have a listen and judge the sound of the middle registers.

Glenn

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Re: How To Increase Realism in the Middle Registers

Ecaroh wrote:

Here at this forum, I can see that some people like to criticize V-piano but they are completely silent about these problems I have been pointing out for a quite long time.

That's because people have subjective opinions about the sound of piano. Some actually like the midrange and are perfectly satisfied with it.

Hard work and guts!

Re: How To Increase Realism in the Middle Registers

I can hear these problems (*) in McKenzies left hand strikes (especially when he hits harder). So for me it's more like lowmids (not midrange) problematic. 

(*) Anyway this is problem for myself and obviously for some other people too. But if somebody is happy with it, it's fine with me. And like mr.Dragon said, there's this subjective part of whole thing. I love many things with PTQ - its fantastic GUI, resonance, playability, mic positioning just to name few.

Re: How To Increase Realism in the Middle Registers

EvilDragon wrote:

That's because people have subjective opinions about the sound of piano. Some actually like the midrange and are perfectly satisfied with it.

Agreed.

I have ceased to obsess with the shortcomings and focus on how expressive the instrument is. Do we really need the sound of hammers traveling through the air (for example) to have an authentic piano sound? Do you really believe the audience is listening for this detail?

JR