Topic by Jake Johnson

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Topic: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Many people here probably saw this at the PianoWorld site, but I thought I should link to it. A dissertation that examines the contribution of the lid and the keyboard. I'm not sure that everyone will agree with everything it says, but:

http://researchspace.auckland.ac.nz/bit...sequence=4

The synopis:

http://researchspace.auckland.ac.nz/handle/2292/1430

Has a lot of background cited from Five Lectures on the Acoustics of the Piano, and general information, and valuable, to me, overviews of the literature. Dismisses the contribution of the case (boo, hiss) to focus on the lid and finally the wood or fiberboard used to house the keys. The final focus is a comparison of uprights to grands, and how the keybed affects the overall sound.

Last edited by Jake Johnson (04-05-2010 08:01)

Reply by iaoranaemaeva

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Jake Johnson wrote:

The final focus is a comparison of uprights to grands, and how the keybed affects the overall sound.

Thanks Jake for this interesting paper. Among other things, its analysis and modelling chapters can give us an idea of the job that must be made to produce a virtual instrument in Pianoteq

Alain

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Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

You see, of course, my less-than-hidden agenda: collecting the qualities of an upright?

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

What about a smal change in pianoteq lid adjust ?

What about a option not just to open the lid, but complete remove it ?

Also, just a minor thing, like a option to keep the lid closed but with just the small portion (front small lid that open and place over the main lid) open.


Perhaps...  why not a option to change just the lid hardness ?

Last edited by Beto-Music (04-05-2010 19:11)

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Beto-Music wrote:

why not a option to change just the lid hardness ?

... and the stool softness too

Sorry Beto

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Háa háaa....   nice joke.   

If you really need a smooth stool, maybe a solution to you would be:

PunBB bbcode test

I think the lid harness, despite of cause a minor change, can alter a bit the sound. Some pianos have a acrilic lid, as decoration, but such thing are rare.

The small front lid (fordable section of main lid) sometimes are used in some recordings, putting mic near that small open area, and keeping the rest of the lid closed.

iaoranaemaeva wrote:
Beto-Music wrote:

why not a option to change just the lid hardness ?

... and the stool softness too

Sorry Beto

Last edited by Beto-Music (04-05-2010 22:52)

Reply by iaoranaemaeva

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Beto-Music wrote:

(..) nice joke. If you really need a smooth stool, maybe a solution to you would be (..)

Yours is nicer , but [OT?] I was operated 5 years ago (Milligan & Morgan technique) and - might I say - it's as different as chalk and cheese

Last edited by iaoranaemaeva (05-05-2010 02:40)

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Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

On a more serious note, the dissertation argues that the lacquer on the lid has a large effect. I wonder...I would think that the hinges and the type of wood and the thickness would have a greater effect on the degree of reflection and damping and transmission from the lid.

I wonder if anyone has looked for nodes of vibration on the lid, like those on the soundboard. Or do the hinges intentionally decouple the lid to prevent it from coming into the equation except for reflection and damping?

Reply by Beto-Music

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

The Stradivarius violins was a mistery. Some prior theories said that was the glacial wood (harder), used in many of his violins, the responsible for the special sound.

Today the explanation is insecticide.  Funny, isn't it???
The borax, a chemical used in that time to prevent termite, usually altered the wood extructure, the pores, and give a special ressonance properties.
Also a glue, used by Stradvarius, is pointed as have some role in the distint quality sound of his violins.

Anyway, If Modartt also add a option to sellect the kinf of varnish for the lid, forists will ask for a full cataloque of colors.

Jake Johnson wrote:

On a more serious note, the dissertation argues that the lacquer on the lid has a large effect. I wonder...I would think that the hinges and the type of wood and the thickness would have a greater effect on the degree of reflection and damping and transmission from the lid.

I wonder if anyone has looked for nodes of vibration on the lid, like those on the soundboard. Or do the hinges intentionally decouple the lid to prevent it from coming into the equation except for reflection and damping?

Last edited by Beto-Music (05-05-2010 20:04)

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Faith, Science and music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6-roahcTIM

Reply by Glenn NK

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

I think the final word on the famous Italian violins was twofold:

(1)  The wood is Red Spruce from a valley in northern Italy - Val di Fiemme, the same used by Fazioli:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_di_Fiemme

http://www.fazioli.com/en/

Click on Products - all their grands use this wood.

(2)  The wood was seasoned for quite a few years.  This is probably very important.

Glenn

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Jake Johnson wrote:

Or do the hinges intentionally decouple the lid to prevent it from coming into the equation except for reflection and damping?

Hinges used are ordinary ones, not especially designed for optimal decoupling or so: they must provide a good and sturdy joint, period! Did piano designers even thought about their influence ?

IMHO, the main coupling is acoustic, but it should be confirmed - thank you Jake for having raised the question

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Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Glenn NK wrote:

I think the final word on the famous Italian violins was twofold:

(1)  The wood is Red Spruce from a valley in northern Italy - Val di Fiemme, the same used by Fazioli...

At first, I misread this as saying "Val di Femme," a mixture of Italian and French, and thought it meant "Valley of Women." I briefly imagined a valley filled with a forest of women. Probably staring at the mountains and wondering how to get out of this valley.

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Jake Johnson wrote:

I briefly imagined a valley filled with a forest of women.

Maybe this is why the Red Spruce produces such a sweet tone.

G

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Reply by Michael H

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

There's also no research that I have found anywhere in the literature, after wide searching, that examines the acoustic effects of Michelle Pfeiffer lying across the lid of a piano while singing..

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Such research is needed. Please have Ms. Pfeiffer contact me at the earliest possible time.

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Jake Johnson wrote:

Such research is needed. Please have Ms. Pfeiffer contact me at the earliest possible time.

LOL....get in line, Jake

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Modartt already did that, and will be realised in the next update:

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4002/susiewithpianoteq.jpg   

  But as the laws against sexual harassment are very severe in France, you can't put the virtual mics too close, as the algorithm will automatically shut dow the solftware, as punishment.
   For the same reason, requests for back view of piano perspective will not be take in consideration.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Michael H wrote:
Jake Johnson wrote:

Such research is needed. Please have Ms. Pfeiffer contact me at the earliest possible time.

LOL....get in line, Jake

Last edited by Beto-Music (07-05-2010 05:32)

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Beto-Music wrote:

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4002/susiewithpianoteq.jpg

LMAO!!!!! 

Just keep those bloody Bridges (AKA Baker) boys away from it -- we DON'T need to see their mugs! -- and you'll have a surefire hit!!!

"Our developers, who art in Toulouse, hallowed be thy physical-models.
Thy version 4 come, thy new instruments be done, in the computer as it is in the wood!"

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Nice update. Let me guess--the hem-line can be adjusted with midi cc's?

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Beto-Music wrote:

  But as the laws against sexual harassment are very severe in France, you can't put the virtual mics too close, as the algorithm will automatically shut dow the solftware, as punishment.

I thought they wrote that kind of thing off as "crimes of passion" in France.

Thanks for the laugh - very clever!

Greg.

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Wow!!! GREAT update! You need to be on the Modartt team Beto-Music!

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Jake Johnson wrote:

Nice update. Let me guess--the hem-line can be adjusted with midi cc's?

Yup, I'll just assign it to velocity and draw a curve -- for the, um, curves...

(Oh, goodness...  This is why we need more ladies here, to keep all of us whacked-out guys in line.  I'll try to behave now... )

"Our developers, who art in Toulouse, hallowed be thy physical-models.
Thy version 4 come, thy new instruments be done, in the computer as it is in the wood!"

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

dhalfen wrote:

(Oh, goodness...  This is why we need more ladies here, to keep all of us whacked-out guys in line.  I'll try to behave now... )

Good grief Doug, if you and Beto behave, we'll have no fun at all.

Glenn

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Re: Dissertation on the lid and keybed

Glenn NK wrote:

Good grief Doug, if you and Beto behave, we'll have no fun at all.

Don't worry, the chances of us actually behaving well are slim to none -- I was just playing "Ms. Pfeiffer's Advocate!"

"Our developers, who art in Toulouse, hallowed be thy physical-models.
Thy version 4 come, thy new instruments be done, in the computer as it is in the wood!"