Topic: Fooling around with 3 velocity layers

Fooling around with velocity settings, I found myself getting a good sound by setting three separate stages:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/706/3velocitylayers.png

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I'm wondering--how smooth is the ratio of velocity to timbre change on a good real piano? Is there a linear gradation of velocity to timbre, or are there steps or near-break points, so to speak--velocities within certain ranges have a similar effect on the timbre, but the change in timbre is accelerated at certain points? Related to the compression of the hammer felts, of course, which we can control, but I'm getting what sounds, at the moment, like a good response by keeping the hammers set as above and using these three layers. Still need to experiment with how three velocity layers intermingle with three hammer hardnesses. Of course, different keyboards are going to create very different results.

(Makes me wonder, too, if the old "triple strike" pianos were onto something--that three layers aren't just a way of varying the timbre with velocity, but may to some degree reflect a reality.)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (03-05-2010 21:07)

Re: Fooling around with 3 velocity layers

Jake Johnson wrote:

I'm wondering--how smooth is the ratio of velocity to timbre change on a good real piano? Is there a linear gradation of velocity to timbre, or are there steps or near-break points, so to speak--velocities within certain ranges have a similar effect on the timbre, but the change in timbre is accelerated at certain points? Related to the compression of the hammer felts, of course, which we can control, but I'm getting what sounds, at the moment, like a good response by keeping the hammers set as above and using these three layers. Still need to experiment with how three velocity layers intermingle with three hammer hardnesses. Of course, different keyboards are going to create very different results.

(Makes me wonder, too, if the old "triple strike" pianos were onto something--that three layers aren't just a way of varying the timbre with velocity, but may to some degree reflect a reality.)

Don't forget that an acoustic piano is an analog instrument - the change from soft strikes to hard strikes is likely not linear, but it will be continuous (assuming that the hammer doesn't move laterally a bit to use different parts of the strike area).  There should be no steps or break points.

Glenn

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Re: Fooling around with 3 velocity layers

EDIT: Glenn-it took me a second reading to see what you meant--that the hammer attack would be linear. What follows has to do with the results of the strikes. I guess I'm trying to manipulate the velocity to register those, if they exist...

Well, my thought--mulling this over without research or testing--was that although the velocity and force would be linear, the response of the string and the hammers might not be. In other words, there might be levels of impedance. With soft strikes, assuming a softish hammer and a hard string at great tension, the string wouldn't be moved much. But there would be a specific point at which the resistance of the string was overcome--any force above this would overcome the resistance easily. Any force below it would have the hammer bouncing off the string as much as exciting it--there would be sound, but the string would win fairly fast and return to a steady state fast.

I don't know about a third level. Another point at which the resistance becomes even lower. You're an engineer, yes? There would of course be a breaking point for any object struck by a force, but would there be a level below this, a level well above the point at which the resistance is overcome, a point at which very little resistance was present--a stage of suddenly greater elasticity, say? [EDIT: But that doesn't make sense, given the sound produced, does it--a sudden increase in string elasticity would create a darker sound, but the sound instead brightens.]
Or perhaps that third stage might be instead be one at which suddenly greater excitations of transients occured?

But all of this comes out of nowhere--random ideas that occurred when I accidentally set three velocity stages, liked the sound of the accelerated movement to medium strikes, and remembered liking some triple-strike pianos from the past. That may be all I'm doing, really--recreating an old fashioned sampled sound. But I was playing a Mason-Hamlin for a few minutes yesterday and felt as though the action wasn't entirely linear--that it got a little louder and fuller, if not exactly brighter, with just a little more force, as opposed to working up to the sound linearly. (Did you try the settings?)

Last edited by Jake Johnson (17-12-2010 00:22)

Re: Fooling around with 3 velocity layers

Jake Johnson wrote:

I'm wondering--how smooth is the ratio of velocity to timbre change on a good real piano?

I've just taken a listen of a certain sampled piano that features up to 100 velocity layers (i.e up to 100 seperate recordings, to the best of my knowledge), and it is very, very smooth. The subject piano accepts MIDI input so assuming that minimal editing was performed, this might be a good reference. 

Greg.

Last edited by skip (04-05-2010 04:11)

Re: Fooling around with 3 velocity layers

Jake Johnson wrote:

EDIT: Glenn-it took me a second reading to see what you meant--that the hammer attack would be linear. What follows has to do with the results of the strikes. I guess I'm trying to manipulate the velocity to register those, if they exist...

Actually I didn't think I said it was linear, but likely non-linear.

Many things in physics are not linear at all - the fall-off of radiation with distance follows a square law, the volume of a cube follows a cubic law (obviously).

But this doesn't mean they have discreet step values - rather they usually are continuously variable no matter the function governing input and output.  If I lift with twice the force, I can lift twice the weight and this is linear, but main point is that there are no steps in the equation.

I think we've become so attuned to the digital world utilized by most computers that we think in terms of discrete steps (however small).

Once upon a time, when I started engineering (before most people here were born), the relative merits of digital versus analogue computers were debated.  Of course digital won out for the most part, so we tend to think of digital (128 steps in MIDI) as being the norm.  Real musical instruments don't output in 128 discrete steps, but in a continuum of values.  Generally it works because we don't notice the difference.  But there are people that claim that digital music sounds cold or synthetic or some other term.  Is it possible that they can detect the steps?

Back to the hammers.  Their reaction to force is not likely linear at all;  I don't believe there is a point (or step) where the sound suddenly changes because the felt suddenly undergoes an abrupt change in physical properties.  If one could plot a curve relating hardness or tone output to velocity, the curve likely isn't linear, but curvilinear, and I also suspect that the there are regions where the curve equation changes shape and may well change rather quickly.  This may appear to be a discontinuity, and for practical purposes it may be, but one wouldn't find a gap in the curve if an infinite number of points were plotted.  Make sense?

Glenn

__________________________
Procrastination Week has been postponed.  Again.

Re: Fooling around with 3 velocity layers

Glenn NK wrote:

But there are people that claim that digital music sounds cold or synthetic or some other term.  Is it possible that they can detect the steps?

Apparently people often prefer band-limited recordings to full bandwidth recordings, so it's possible that in the old days the lack of frequency response was actually "warmer" and preferable. (?)
Were recordings typically more compressed in dynamic range in the old days? (esp. cassette?) I've noticed that sometimes when I listen to CD I don't like it as much as the radio transmission, and I know that multi-band compression is typically used on the radio, for example.
(I have applied heavy multi-band compression to recordings for quiet listening in the car, and it worked very well indeed, but I digress)

Greg.

Re: Fooling around with 3 velocity layers

Yes. I didn't mean an abrupt change, but instead an accelerated rate of change. And it occurs to me that what I want to try is an expanded middle area, reducing the ratio for middle velocities there. But I'm getting confused, too, since I'm actually changing the velocity to amplitude in the Velocity window, while trying to do this.

Hey, Skip. I have to admit that I've been a coward about trying out the big libraries with 100 samples per note. I guess the question to ask is--does the big library sound good and feel good?

Can you expand on multiband compression? That means that several ranges of  amplitude levels are isolated, their highest amplitude reduced, and the overall level of each band is raised? But wouldn't the leaps in amplitude--from one band to the next-- be noticeable? Or is something done to smooth the leaps?

Last edited by Jake Johnson (04-05-2010 06:02)

Re: Fooling around with 3 velocity layers

Jake,
I don't own that sample library - I merely listened to a test someone did where they rendered a MIDI file that consisted of a single note played at ever increasing velocities, changing the velocity by a tiny amount for each strike.  I was only listening for rather sudden jumps - not the subtle kind of change in the timbre-vs-velocity slope that you are looking for - sorry.

Multiband compression is just different amounts of compression applied to different frequency bands:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_ra...ompression

Greg.

Last edited by skip (04-05-2010 07:19)

Re: Fooling around with 3 velocity layers

re: folks sometimes preferring band-limited recordings, I don't think that applies to the kids of today - apparently if they don't hear the "MP3 sizzle" they think something is wrong. ;^)  Sad. Very sad!

Greg.

Re: Fooling around with 3 velocity layers

Skip, I'm just tossing out thoughts and trying things. Thanks for the link on multiband compression. A huge tool that I've never played with. A little scary really. Do you know of anyone using it on pianos to create specific sounds we might know, or is it mainly used on mixes?

Re: Fooling around with 3 velocity layers

Jake,
No worries.

I have no idea how much multi-band compression is used in mixes - good question. 

The only reason I know anything about it is that I did a bit of research on why I sometimes prefer radio transmissions to the original material. I was informed that it may be because of two things:  a) radio stations often use very sophisticated multi-band compression, and b) they have highly skilled engineers who know how to use them very effectively.

I forget the name of the sofware I tried. I do know that some radio stations actually used the same software, as an alternative to hardware units. Some audio editors come with multi-band compression.

Greg.