Topic by Pianoguy

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Topic: That elusive hammer sound

Hi all,

I've read a number of posts referring to the issue of the attack sound in Pianoteq. To my ears, it's that soft metallic bell-like quality which can be heard on a good acoustic piano, particularly a well tuned & voiced grand. I have uploaded some MP3 files based on a MIDI file of a short excerpt played by me, which I think demonstrates how a good sampled piano like Ivory conveys this sounds (particularly on the last note) compared to Pianoteq. The modified Pianoteq C3 piano I use is extremely expressive and a wonderful instrument to play, but at times I think it lacks that "air" of the attacks that I hear on recordings of real acoustic pianos. Interested in your thoughts!

Reply by olepro

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Re: That elusive hammer sound

Exactly what i have discovered allso.
What make us recognize a sound of the most instruments is the very first attack part af the sound.
This is why it is so important to get this right in Pianoteq.
I know i have said this before but i still miss that bell-ish sound from the piano stings in Pianoteq as i hear it on real/sampled piano's and this "spoiiing" sound when hitting the low strings very hard... (hard to describe with words) :-)

But i agree with you 100%

olepro's Website

Reply by BazC

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Re: That elusive hammer sound

Welcome to the forum!

I agree though I think I'd describe it as woody at least on the lower velocity notes. I'm impressed how close PTQ is to the Ivory recording though! I'd love to try your .fxp if you don't mind sharing?

BTW is that Scott Houston by any chance?

Last edited by BazC (02-03-2010 13:17)

Reply by Pianoguy

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Re: That elusive hammer sound

Ah yes, the "spoiiing" sound . . . the nuances of the piano sound are difficult to put into words! As we know, Pianoteq gives us the ability to create very responsive and alive sounding instruments, but quite often what draws me into the beauty of the piano sound are those characteristics we are trying to describe here, particularly when playing softly or trying to make a melody line sing.

Yes BazC, the Pianoteq sound is very close, is a very enjoyable instrument to play and sounds great through my Blue Sky Mediadesk 2.1 Monitors.  I'm happy to share my tweaked C3 preset - I'll upload the .fxp in the morning.

The Pianoguy name is purely a coincidence. I didn't realise that Scott Houston goes by this name until I Googled him after reading your reply. Maybe I should have registered under the name "The Other Pianoguy" :-)

Reply by BazC

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Re: That elusive hammer sound

Pianoguy wrote:

Yes BazC, the Pianoteq sound is very close, is a very enjoyable instrument to play and sounds great through my Blue Sky Mediadesk 2.1 Monitors.  I'm happy to share my tweaked C3 preset - I'll upload the .fxp in the morning.

Thanks very much! Yes I'll bet there are many Pianoguys scattered across the web!

Reply by Gilles

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Re: That elusive hammer sound

There was a lot of past discussion in the forum about this subject of the attack not being realistic enough as compared to samples. There was also questionning about the fact that pianoteq's model might be simplified to be able to run real time, frustrating a bit people with the latest and fastest cpus. This last question was answered recently, acknowledging that there was not a more complex model now available.

May I humbly suggest to our dear developers that probably the biggest leap in the product would be to really model the physical interaction of the hammers and the strings in the first 30 ms or so of the sound.

Now this may prove too complex to do in real time and so should be optional, but it may satisfy power users with very fast machines, and also studio users who would like to create better mixes without the constraints of real-time playing.

Just my two cents...

Last edited by Gilles (02-03-2010 14:15)

Reply by OLEK

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Re: That elusive hammer sound

That may be way more complicated than is seem, as by evidence what happens then determine most of the following.

The "phase change" on repeated note is a good example .

I am under the impression that rules are obtained based on the effect obtained, then the set of rule is installed in the model to respond when certain situation arise. I dont know much about the differnt methods availeable, but I suppose that some are asking too much computing while other are possible with our computers.

Due to the response time needed I suppose that in no way we could have a device that could take  some of the computing (as do the video cards). There is yet latency between the keyboard and the software, so ...

Phase gestion may also induce specialized circuitry, may be some is yet present to process the dolby surround , or similar, and can be used for that.

May be it is totally irrelevant !

I wonder if many written material exists on the behavior of the strings, their coupling with the bridge, and together, and how they ar eput in motion. I've seen  fast speed camera shoots of piano wires and the coupling can be seen going from
. strings to the
other, and changing direction under the polarisation due to the bridge move and pressure coming from the angles at the bridge pins.
Looks like a very complicated wave motion.

Reply by Gilles

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Re: That elusive hammer sound

OLEK wrote:

I wonder if many written material exists on the behavior of the strings, their coupling with the bridge, and together, and how they ar eput in motion.

This excellent lecture has been mentioned before in the forum:

http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/contents.html

Lots of interesting things on hammer/string interaction.

Reply by Pianoguy

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Re: That elusive hammer sound

For those who are interested, I have uploaded the Pianoteq edited C3 .fxp which I used for the demo of the soft hammer sound comparison. Please note that the MP3 was created from within Logic, with a subtle compressor, limiter & EQ added to the output channel (which would vary depending on personal taste, application, soundcard, monitors/headphones used, the room you are in, etc. etc . . . )

Reply by Jake Johnson

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Re: That elusive hammer sound

"...written material...on the behavior of the strings..."

There's a lot out there. And PianoTeq is good at emulating the physics. Don't forget the Direct Duration in experimenting with the evolution of the sound formed by the unisons.

About phasing: It's hard to talk about because there are so many things moving in and out of phase--the soundboard, the soundboard and strings, the strings with their unisons, the longitudinal and vertical vibrations of the strings, the mics...

But about the hammer sound: Has the original poster listened to or tried the fxp created by Creart with the mics lined along the harp? May point you towards getting the sound that you want. Here's the mp3:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...977cf8ffb6

And the fxp:

http://www.forum-pianoteq.com/uploads.p...977cf8ffb6

Last edited by Jake Johnson (03-03-2010 16:03)

Reply by BazC

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Re: That elusive hammer sound

Pianoguy wrote:

For those who are interested, I have uploaded the Pianoteq edited C3 .fxp which I used for the demo of the soft hammer sound comparison.

Excellent, thanks Pianoguy!

Reply by Pianoguy

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Re: That elusive hammer sound

Further to the challenge of coaxing a convincing attack sound from Pianoteq, I have uploaded in the files section an edited M3 .fxp which plays very nicely. I prefer it to the C3 preset I uploaded previously, particularly in the bass region. It's about as close as I can get at this stage - let me know what you think. The velocity curve suits my Kawai ES4 weighted keyboard well, but you may need to adjust the curve to suit your keyboard, as this has a huge impact on the tone achieved.