Topic by eunji Kim

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Topic: Roland HP702 + Pianoteq 9: Muddy resonance and poor note clarity

Hello,

I’m using a Roland HP702 as a MIDI controller with Pianoteq 9 Standard (NY Steinway D).

Initially, my recordings lacked presence. After some testing, I found that changing the HP702 Key Touch to Light solved that problem and significantly improved the presence.

However, this revealed another issue.

Although the sound now has much better presence, it no longer sounds clean. When using the sustain pedal, the resonance becomes muddy and overlapping, reducing the clarity and separation between notes.

To solve this, I increased Hammer Hardness. This improves the presence, but the tone becomes harsh, scratchy and almost toy-like.

If I reduce Hammer Hardness, the harshness decreases, but the sound loses almost all of its presence and becomes dull and muffled.

Another important observation is that this problem becomes much more noticeable when listening to the recordings on a smartphone. On my studio computer I can still hear differences, but on a smartphone the harshness and note smearing become much more obvious, making the recordings sound significantly less natural.

So far I have tested:

* HP702 Key Touch
* Multiple velocity curves
* Hammer Hardness
* Hammer Tone
* Spectrum Profile
* Individual Piano / Mezzo / Forte adjustments
* Condition
* EQ
* Resonance
* Reverb
* Delay
* Different microphone combinations and positions
* Pedal curve
* Tested in both Cakewalk and Ableton Live

I have also compared my recordings with several Roland + Pianoteq performances on YouTube. Their recordings sound much smoother than mine, even though they appear to use mostly default settings.

At this point I cannot find a balance between good presence, a smooth tone, and clean note clarity.

Am I overlooking something important? Has anyone experienced similar behavior with Roland digital pianos and Pianoteq, or can you recommend another direction to investigate?


Another observation is that I normally do not use deep sustain pedal in my playing. In fact, I usually feel that I use less than half-pedal. However, when I checked the recorded MIDI data, the sustain pedal (CC64) frequently reached the maximum value of 127. Because of this, I also investigated the pedal behavior and adjusted the pedal curve, but it did not solve the problem.


Could this possibly be related to the way the Roland HP702 transmits sustain pedal (CC64) data, or the way Pianoteq interprets Roland pedal input?

Reply by Pianistically

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Re: Roland HP702 + Pianoteq 9: Muddy resonance and poor note clarity

eunji Kim wrote:

Hello,

I’m using a Roland HP702 as a MIDI controller with Pianoteq 9 Standard (NY Steinway D).

Initially, my recordings lacked presence. After some testing, I found that changing the HP702 Key Touch to Light solved that problem and significantly improved the presence.

However, this revealed another issue.

Although the sound now has much better presence, it no longer sounds clean. When using the sustain pedal, the resonance becomes muddy and overlapping, reducing the clarity and separation between notes.

To solve this, I increased Hammer Hardness. This improves the presence, but the tone becomes harsh, scratchy and almost toy-like.

If I reduce Hammer Hardness, the harshness decreases, but the sound loses almost all of its presence and becomes dull and muffled.

Another important observation is that this problem becomes much more noticeable when listening to the recordings on a smartphone. On my studio computer I can still hear differences, but on a smartphone the harshness and note smearing become much more obvious, making the recordings sound significantly less natural.

So far I have tested:

* HP702 Key Touch
* Multiple velocity curves
* Hammer Hardness
* Hammer Tone
* Spectrum Profile
* Individual Piano / Mezzo / Forte adjustments
* Condition
* EQ
* Resonance
* Reverb
* Delay
* Different microphone combinations and positions
* Pedal curve
* Tested in both Cakewalk and Ableton Live

I have also compared my recordings with several Roland + Pianoteq performances on YouTube. Their recordings sound much smoother than mine, even though they appear to use mostly default settings.

At this point I cannot find a balance between good presence, a smooth tone, and clean note clarity.

Am I overlooking something important? Has anyone experienced similar behavior with Roland digital pianos and Pianoteq, or can you recommend another direction to investigate?


Another observation is that I normally do not use deep sustain pedal in my playing. In fact, I usually feel that I use less than half-pedal. However, when I checked the recorded MIDI data, the sustain pedal (CC64) frequently reached the maximum value of 127. Because of this, I also investigated the pedal behavior and adjusted the pedal curve, but it did not solve the problem.


Could this possibly be related to the way the Roland HP702 transmits sustain pedal (CC64) data, or the way Pianoteq interprets Roland pedal input?

Regarding sustain pedal , there is only one value  between ( 0,127) which is transmitted via change control 64  message . The value you see in pianoteq is the incoming value before Pianoteq curve is applied. So if there is any issues with the pedal itself, you should notice it when using internal piano sounds on the HP702. If your recorded midi file contains pedal values =127  it means that the pedal curve you have setup in Pianoteq allows a maximum value of 127 . The default curve  (0, 25,95,127;0,0,127,127) intent is to reproduce the behaviour of many pedals on acoustic piano as  the full range is obtained within a reduced portion of the entire pedal movement . The fact that you reach 127 while the pedal is not fully pressed is actually normal. If you want to check how your pedal is calibrated  , you can setup the Pianoteq pedal curve linear between 0 and 127 and then observe in pianoteq midi monitor ( in the option menu) the incoming   CC64 values while you start depressing the HP702 sustain pedal slowly from the top to the bottom. That will give you a good indication of the actual physical calibration of the potentiometer of your pedal and allows you to set a curve which corrects any anomaly.

Reply by eunji Kim

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Re: Roland HP702 + Pianoteq 9: Muddy resonance and poor note clarity

Thank you for your explanation.

I believe the MIDI CC64 values are behaving normally, so I don’t think the pedal is sending incorrect data.

I have already tried adjusting or disabling the resonance effects, reverb, and pedal-related settings.

However, I still hear more resonance than expected, and the notes do not sound as clear or well-defined. I’m not sure what is causing it.

Is there anything else you would recommend checking or testing?

Reply by Pianistically

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Re: Roland HP702 + Pianoteq 9: Muddy resonance and poor note clarity

eunji Kim wrote:

Thank you for your explanation.

I believe the MIDI CC64 values are behaving normally, so I don’t think the pedal is sending incorrect data.

I have already tried adjusting or disabling the resonance effects, reverb, and pedal-related settings.

However, I still hear more resonance than expected, and the notes do not sound as clear or well-defined. I’m not sure what is causing it.

Is there anything else you would recommend checking or testing?

given the various parameters that you already adjusted , I would suggest to save export you settings in an FXP  file , record a session when you feel it’s roo resonant save both the midi file and export a wav or flac rendition. . Put it on a shared drive , so that people can investigate , otherwise it’s very tricky to help .

Reply by stamkorg

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Re: Roland HP702 + Pianoteq 9: Muddy resonance and poor note clarity

Hello,

I use Pianoteq with an HP507 and it works very well, but mine has a continuous keyboard sensitivity setting ranging from 0 to 100. The default is 50; I found a good sound with the sensitivity set to 46 (lighter) and a straight line from 0/0 to 127/127 in Pianoteq.

From what you describe, I suspect your keyboard sensitivity could be a bit too light.
Have you used the Pianoteq keyboard calibration tool to check if the velocities are rising too quickly?
I don't know your piano skill level or your experience with virtual instruments, but you should only reach maximum velocities when you press the keys really hard.
This parameter is truly fundamental and must be properly adjusted.
In this regard, if your keyboard doesn't have continuous sensitivity adjustment, you might want to leave the setting at "normal" and slightly lighten the curve in Pianoteq (which allows for extreme precision).

With version 9, I found the sound to be very (perhaps too?) complex in terms of resonance at times. It might be a psychoacoustic effect, or simply that I’m not used to it. I resolved this by slightly reducing the sympathetic resonance (to around 0.93 instead of 1.0) on some presets.

You could also check the impedance settings (height and cutoff) and reduce them slightly.

In any case, good luck with your sound.

Last edited by stamkorg (Today 16:44)

Reply by stamkorg

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Re: Roland HP702 + Pianoteq 9: Muddy resonance and poor note clarity

One last thing: Pianoteq is well-configured by default.

It looks like you’ve changed quite a few settings.
Start by going back to a factory preset and make sure the velocity curve is properly calibrated. If that’s done correctly, it sounds good. Any additional adjustments based on personal taste should be subtle IMO.