Very good, Key Fumbler!
I must have completely missed this when rereading what I wrote, before posting it early in the morning as I was about to get ready for work.
...And I fancy myself to be a good "morning person."
I guess that self-assessment must be pushing reality a step farther away!
- David
Very good, Key Fumbler!
I must have completely missed this when rereading what I wrote, before posting it early in the morning as I was about to get ready for work.
...And I fancy myself to be a good "morning person."
I guess that self-assessment must be pushing reality a step farther away!
- David
Hopefully I didn't come over as petty as this fellow!
TBH, you can't go wrong with any of these piano brands—in fact if you buy them all it's still cheaper than buying a real grand.
I'd guess the NY Steinways (B&D) are very popular because they are common in music schools and stages...so it's a sound people know—they have nice bright detailed highs and rich lows...and they sound good for all types of piano music—perhaps more in a solo role than blending with a combo.
But since you can try them all out for free, I'd play around with them. In fact, it may be that you prefer the Steinway but with a totally different setup (like the Blues or Studio options)...because they sound as different as another instrument.
I'm returning to this thread to thank everyone again for all your helpful feedback and discussion!
I waited (not patiently) for Modartt's annual sale, and finally purchased Pianoteq Standard this morning. I absolutely love the new Bösendorfer. I also chose the D--so beautiful--and the U4 for a different flavor.
I agree with the sentiment that it's difficult to go wrong. These models are quite amazing.
I hope everyone is enjoying their music as I am!
Pete
The Summer Sale just inspired me to take the plunge. I've purchased PT8 Standard plus one extra piano instrument:
Steinway D
Petrof
Bosendorfer
Bechstein
Steinway D is a no-brainer because it replaces my previous sampled Ivory American Concert D. Petrof has been highly regarded in this forum, with a warm and woody sound to complement the Steinways.
The new Bosendorfer surprised me. I've not been a Bosendorfer fan, but digging into the demos, the sonic purity in this instrument is amazing. I'll do some sound design and have a lovely main piano.
The Bechstein simply sounds nice to me and complements the others well. My favorite aspect of the sound is the lack of phasing that comes with mic placement with sampled VIs. I may play with mid-side mic options for perfect collapse to mono.
I expected the Pianoteq "sound". While it's there, it is much better than some of the Modartt demos suggested. Plus, responsiveness and playability of the models more than offset these subtle artifacts.
I really appreciate how lightweight modelling is compared to sampling. Instant launch, ultra low latency and glitch free. On a M2 Max CPU I reach perhaps 10% CPU load in dense passages.
Overall, very satisfied with this investment so far.
@skymuse - it's interesting to me how you point out the differences and the difficulty with phasing with sampled piano microphones. Do you think this represents a lack of awareness on those recording the pianos? Or is it because they offer multiple microphones in an array and you are "mixing and matching"? I myself am always having issues in Pianoteq as I try to find the open "perfect" microphone arrangement for different sounds, but it didn't occur to me that one might have more trouble with sampled libraries that supposedly already had microphone placement.
I think it is difficult to produce a solid image with multiple mics and many dynamic velocity layers. The engineers who create sample-based instruments certainly are top notch. It's just that recording one dynamic performance is different from creating a large matrix that will be performed in countless ways. I have the highest respect for those who created Garritan CFX, Ravenscroft, Ivory D, etc.
Ivory American Concert D is one of my favorite sampled VIs. It responds well enough and has nice character for solo playing. My biggest issue is a "smeared" stereo image; I cannot tell exactly where the piano sits in the stereo field. My fix has been to mono-ize frequencies up to about 200 Hz, which better anchors the center. Garritan CFX is somewhat better in this regard.
In contrast, Pianoteq should present a mathematically perfect mono piano using a single mic. And better, I think it is possible to simulate stereo mid-side mic'ing, using a figure-8 and cardioid mic together. I haven't tried this yet, TBD.
Edit: The same rules for mic placement should apply in Pianoteq, e.g. following the 3:1 Rule to avoid comb filtering. Doing this may be tricky in Pianoteq due to the mic placement window being fairly low-resolution.
I’ve spent a lot of nights going back and forth with the different Pianoteq pianos and it really does come down to personal taste and what feels right under your fingers. Honestly, the NY Steinway D is usually my go-to for anything classical or jazz since it feels the smoothest to me, but I also come back to the Petrof models when I’m after a warmer or darker sound, especially with the right presets and some tweaking. It took me a while to figure out my top picks, and that changed as I got better headphones and monitors. Also, whenever I have to make a decision or a big switch, like when I finally got rid of my old upright, it pays to get help from a local service you can trust for moving heavy stuff cleanly and safely. For that I’ve used https://1dayjunk.ca/piano-removal-hamilton/, since they handle tricky removals like pianos without you needing to worry about moving a muscle.
Tommy, your post reads as quite the compliment, with a twinge of sadness. Pianoteq in this case is as good or better than the real thing, and it's unfortunate in the current day and age that it often takes a "junk remover" to dispatch a piano that in years past would have been purchased and moved by an eager musician.
With one week remaining to buy a Vienna (VSL) sampled piano on deep discount, I keep returning to Pianoteq 9. This surprises me because I bought Pianoteq more as an efficient utility piano (fast and light) and always intended to keep one sampled piano for serious production. Garritan CFX is working reasonably well for me on Apple Silicon in Pro Tools using a VST wrapper.
I've confirmed that I really prefer the sound of Steinway to Bosendorfer, Yamaha. Fazioli, etc. As a sampled instrument, Garritan CFX has air and depth, but with some minor processing I've added air to the Pianoteq Hamburg D Steinway and am really enjoying how responsive its modeling engine is compared to sampling. Pianoteq 9 HB Steinway D Mix (Modified) preset for the win.
With one week remaining to buy a Vienna (VSL) sampled piano on deep discount, I keep returning to Pianoteq 9. This surprises me because I bought Pianoteq more as an efficient utility piano (fast and light) and always intended to keep one sampled piano for serious production. Garritan CFX is working reasonably well for me on Apple Silicon in Pro Tools using a VST wrapper.
I've confirmed that I really prefer the sound of Steinway to Bosendorfer, Yamaha. Fazioli, etc. As a sampled instrument, Garritan CFX has air and depth, but with some minor processing I've added air to the Pianoteq Hamburg D Steinway and am really enjoying how responsive its modeling engine is compared to sampling. Pianoteq 9 HB Steinway D Mix (Modified) preset for the win.
You may want to share your preset on the site (there’s a dedicated section).
skymuse wrote:With one week remaining to buy a Vienna (VSL) sampled piano on deep discount, I keep returning to Pianoteq 9. This surprises me because I bought Pianoteq more as an efficient utility piano (fast and light) and always intended to keep one sampled piano for serious production. Garritan CFX is working reasonably well for me on Apple Silicon in Pro Tools using a VST wrapper.
I've confirmed that I really prefer the sound of Steinway to Bosendorfer, Yamaha. Fazioli, etc. As a sampled instrument, Garritan CFX has air and depth, but with some minor processing I've added air to the Pianoteq Hamburg D Steinway and am really enjoying how responsive its modeling engine is compared to sampling. Pianoteq 9 HB Steinway D Mix (Modified) preset for the win.
You may want to share your preset on the site (there’s a dedicated section).
Thanks for reminding me of this. The only change I've made to the HB Steinway D Mix preset is to reduce Hammer hardness Forte from its default 1.40 down to 1.20, to reduce brightness of hard presses. All other changes currently use 3rd-party plugins in a signal chain inside Vienna VEP8. In Fabfilter ProQ4 I've cut 400 Hz by -5 dB at Q=1.0, and am experimenting with ProMB to dynamically shape the spectrum a bit more. If I can move these processes inside the Pianoteq effects section I'll certainly share my custom preset here.
I also edited the velocity curve in my MIDI controller (RD700NX) to perform better in Pianoteq. Notes now spread smoothly across the entire velocity range without any curve adjustments needed in the plugin.
dikrek wrote:skymuse wrote:With one week remaining to buy a Vienna (VSL) sampled piano on deep discount, I keep returning to Pianoteq 9. This surprises me because I bought Pianoteq more as an efficient utility piano (fast and light) and always intended to keep one sampled piano for serious production. Garritan CFX is working reasonably well for me on Apple Silicon in Pro Tools using a VST wrapper.
I've confirmed that I really prefer the sound of Steinway to Bosendorfer, Yamaha. Fazioli, etc. As a sampled instrument, Garritan CFX has air and depth, but with some minor processing I've added air to the Pianoteq Hamburg D Steinway and am really enjoying how responsive its modeling engine is compared to sampling. Pianoteq 9 HB Steinway D Mix (Modified) preset for the win.
You may want to share your preset on the site (there’s a dedicated section).
Thanks for reminding me of this. The only change I've made to the HB Steinway D Mix preset is to reduce Hammer hardness Forte from its default 1.40 down to 1.20, to reduce brightness of hard presses. All other changes currently use 3rd-party plugins in a signal chain inside Vienna VEP8. In Fabfilter ProQ4 I've cut 400 Hz by -5 dB at Q=1.0, and am experimenting with ProMB to dynamically shape the spectrum a bit more. If I can move these processes inside the Pianoteq effects section I'll certainly share my custom preset here.
I also edited the velocity curve in my MIDI controller (RD700NX) to perform better in Pianoteq. Notes now spread smoothly across the entire velocity range without any curve adjustments needed in the plugin.
Do you mind sharing the velocity curve for RD700NX? I have the same keyboard.
skymuse wrote:dikrek wrote:You may want to share your preset on the site (there’s a dedicated section).
Thanks for reminding me of this. The only change I've made to the HB Steinway D Mix preset is to reduce Hammer hardness Forte from its default 1.40 down to 1.20, to reduce brightness of hard presses. All other changes currently use 3rd-party plugins in a signal chain inside Vienna VEP8. In Fabfilter ProQ4 I've cut 400 Hz by -5 dB at Q=1.0, and am experimenting with ProMB to dynamically shape the spectrum a bit more. If I can move these processes inside the Pianoteq effects section I'll certainly share my custom preset here.
I also edited the velocity curve in my MIDI controller (RD700NX) to perform better in Pianoteq. Notes now spread smoothly across the entire velocity range without any curve adjustments needed in the plugin.
Do you mind sharing the velocity curve for RD700NX? I have the same keyboard.
Gladly. In Pianoteq 9 I'm using the default velocity curve (straight line 0 -127). I tested dropping the slope to 0-125, but instead just dropped Hammer Hardness Forte from 1.40 to 1.20 per my previous post. This takes the edge off the loudest notes while leaving everything else untouched.
Here are my settings in the RD700NX EDIT Menu, 1.Key Touch Sub Menu:
EDIT [Key Touch]
-----
Key Touch: MEDIUM
Key Touch Offset: 0
Velocity: REAL
Velo Delay Sens: 4
Velo Keyflw Sens: 6
Key Off Position: STANDARD
For me this spreads played notes nicely across the entire linear range in Pianoteq 9. If you find notes clustering too low or too high for your playing style, try adjusting RD700NX Key Touch and Key Touch Offset to move them back toward the center.
Kengrayfield wrote:skymuse wrote:Thanks for reminding me of this. The only change I've made to the HB Steinway D Mix preset is to reduce Hammer hardness Forte from its default 1.40 down to 1.20, to reduce brightness of hard presses. All other changes currently use 3rd-party plugins in a signal chain inside Vienna VEP8. In Fabfilter ProQ4 I've cut 400 Hz by -5 dB at Q=1.0, and am experimenting with ProMB to dynamically shape the spectrum a bit more. If I can move these processes inside the Pianoteq effects section I'll certainly share my custom preset here.
I also edited the velocity curve in my MIDI controller (RD700NX) to perform better in Pianoteq. Notes now spread smoothly across the entire velocity range without any curve adjustments needed in the plugin.
Do you mind sharing the velocity curve for RD700NX? I have the same keyboard.
Gladly. In Pianoteq 9 I'm using the default velocity curve (straight line 0 -127). I tested dropping the slope to 0-125, but instead just dropped Hammer Hardness Forte from 1.40 to 1.20 per my previous post. This takes the edge off the loudest notes while leaving everything else untouched.
Here are my settings in the RD700NX EDIT Menu, 1.Key Touch Sub Menu:
EDIT [Key Touch]
-----
Key Touch: MEDIUM
Key Touch Offset: 0
Velocity: REAL
Velo Delay Sens: 4
Velo Keyflw Sens: 6
Key Off Position: STANDARDFor me this spreads played notes nicely across the entire linear range in Pianoteq 9. If you find notes clustering too low or too high for your playing style, try adjusting RD700NX Key Touch and Key Touch Offset to move them back toward the center.
That's very interesting that you don't adjust the velocity curve directly. I will give it a try to see how it feels.
Here is my velocity curve that I derived through the in-app calibration, with some further smoothing. It works well for all models and presets. Give it a try and see if this works for you:
Global Velocity = [0, 1, 18, 29, 40, 51, 64, 81, 97, 112, 127; 0, 0, 24, 39, 53, 66, 81, 97, 111, 121, 127]
skymuse wrote:Kengrayfield wrote:Do you mind sharing the velocity curve for RD700NX? I have the same keyboard.
Gladly. In Pianoteq 9 I'm using the default velocity curve (straight line 0 -127). I tested dropping the slope to 0-125, but instead just dropped Hammer Hardness Forte from 1.40 to 1.20 per my previous post. This takes the edge off the loudest notes while leaving everything else untouched.
Here are my settings in the RD700NX EDIT Menu, 1.Key Touch Sub Menu:
EDIT [Key Touch]
-----
Key Touch: MEDIUM
Key Touch Offset: 0
Velocity: REAL
Velo Delay Sens: 4
Velo Keyflw Sens: 6
Key Off Position: STANDARDFor me this spreads played notes nicely across the entire linear range in Pianoteq 9. If you find notes clustering too low or too high for your playing style, try adjusting RD700NX Key Touch and Key Touch Offset to move them back toward the center.
That's very interesting that you don't adjust the velocity curve directly. I will give it a try to see how it feels.
Here is my velocity curve that I derived through the in-app calibration, with some further smoothing. It works well for all models and presets. Give it a try and see if this works for you:
Global Velocity = [0, 1, 18, 29, 40, 51, 64, 81, 97, 112, 127; 0, 0, 24, 39, 53, 66, 81, 97, 111, 121, 127]
I'll check this out, thank you. EDIT: I've created your velocity curve and think it matches my heavier playing style pretty well. With Pianoteq I'm favoring a more scooped curve that reduces the power of mid-velocities and creates more openness and dynamics. I'm currently testing [0, 46, 87, 110, 127; 4, 19, 49, 83, 127]. It's a coarse curve but pretty effective when incoming notes are in the center of the curve, e.g. between 46 - 110. I've reduced Dynamics to 30 dB to normalize volume changes and may process more in the DAW during production.